High taxation likely doesn’t torpedo things on its own, as many countries have a high tax rate.
However, the optimum is probably somewhere other than in a country where the tax rate and the public sector’s contribution are maximized.
One could argue that the higher the tax rate, the more competent the politicians need to be, since money circulates through the public sector budget. Skilled specifically in terms of baking and growing the cake, rather than just the eternal focus on redistributing it.
" 1. We can ignore contentless “emotional” remarks that don’t bring anything new."
I am not the original poster, but what new value did that message bring to the discussion?
The only information was the number of displaced people, and even that was stated incorrectly:
"So while the Palestinian refugee population has grown significantly over time, it has done so because of the descendants of people displaced decades ago, rather than new displacement. "
The moderation guidelines are specifically such that this is a situation room, and opinions for/against Israeli/Palestinian politics belong elsewhere. Of course, there is often a double standard here; certain writers are allowed to voice their views, while others are not. It would, of course, be great if this policy were consistent.
Of course, it doesn’t change everyone’s attitude, but for some it certainly would. For me, 600 euros instead of 400 would motivate in a completely different way. 500 would also make me consider it more.
It is damn true that living here in leftist Finland is starting to be a pretty shitty deal overall.
A massive tax wedge stifling economic development, in return for which you mostly get a hellishly bloated and inefficient army of public sector parasites.
Nowadays, the advertised “safe society” and “free high-quality education” are only a reality for those who know how to choose where they live correctly.
(Hold on to your designer jackets there in the Helsinki metropolitan area! )
Changing employers has already been suggested here. That is certainly one good option.
If, however, you have the desire to put in more effort than the average Joe for your own wealth, then the normal wage-labor rat race might not be the best option.
A good angle is entrepreneurship, even if initially alongside a day job. If you can build a business so that it runs independently of location, it’s easy to tell this welfare state to shove it and move to a country with lighter taxation if you so choose.
Strong recommendation for Robert Kiyosaki’s book “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” to open up your thinking.
In my view, besides the overall tax rate, the overall structure matters—how the tax burden is composed.
What proportion is collected through indirect taxes like VAT? What share comes from property taxes and the like? How steep is the income tax progression?
In Finland, by international standards, salaries in low-income roles are quite high, while they are relatively low in high-income positions. When combined with steep progression, the incentive effect is far from optimal.
I imagined that FIFA would have cleaned up its act after Qatar, but fat chance. I won’t summarize the story; it’s short and worth reading.
FIFA’s actions are straight out of Putin’s playbook — “FIFA provides us with football, as long as we don’t interfere with its business.”
Does no one or nothing dare to stand up against this? No one even dares to criticize the behavior anymore — just like Putin’s actions. Luckily, FIFA doesn’t have an army.
Full points to the MTV3 journalist for bringing this matter to light. I don’t exactly walk around with my eyes closed, but I haven’t seen stories about the games being arranged for Saudi Arabia anywhere else. I wasn’t even aware of this.
However, the message brought much more new content to the thread than criticizing the post in a couple of lines, copying the same post into the thread again, reminding people of the rules, or just posting links without any personal commentary. These don’t belong in the politics thread either, but I doubt anyone can distinguish them from the rest of the clutter.
A bit earlier, there was an image of the total tax rates in OECD countries. If we now just take a look at the top 3 and bottom 3, which group seems like the better societies?
Denmark, France, Austria VS Ireland, Colombia, Mexico
Suomen Yrittäjät (The Federation of Finnish Enterprises) has commissioned a poll, targeting:
a party support survey conducted in the second half of September among 18–69-year-old Finns in the workforce.
The percentages include 17 percentage points of support from those who don’t know / won’t say / don’t intend to vote. If those are filtered out:
SDP: 20.5%
KOK & PS: 19.3%
Greens/Centre: 9.6%
Left Alliance: 8.4%
RKP/KD: 3.6%
Nyt: 2.4%
GENDER:
If only women voted, the overwhelmingly top party would be the SDP with 20 percent support. 13 percent would vote for the National Coalition Party (KOK), 10 percent for the Greens, and the Finns Party (PS) and Left Alliance would receive 9 percent support.
Among men, the most popular party is the Finns Party (PS) with 22 percent support, followed by the National Coalition Party (KOK) with 19 percent, and the SDP in third with 14 percent.
ROLE:
Among workers, 20 percent would vote for the Finns Party (PS), 18 percent for the SDP, and 10 percent for the National Coalition Party (KOK).
Among lower-level white-collar employees, 24 percent would choose the SDP, 15 percent the National Coalition Party (KOK), and 10 percent the Finns Party (PS).
Among those in management and upper-level white-collar employees, 30 percent would vote for the National Coalition Party (KOK), 13 percent for the SDP, and 12 percent for the Greens.
ENTREPRENEURSHIP:
Among entrepreneurs and private practitioners, the Finns Party (PS) is the most popular party. 26 percent of them would vote for the Finns Party (PS), 22 percent for the National Coalition Party (KOK), and 13 percent for the SDP.
UNEMPLOYMENT:
Among the unemployed, 20 percent would choose the SDP, 13 percent the Finns Party (PS), and 12 percent the Left Alliance.
AGE:
Among those under 30, 19 percent would vote for the Finns Party (PS), 13 percent for the SDP, and 12 percent for the National Coalition Party (KOK). The Greens and Left Alliance would each receive 11 percent support.
SDP and the National Coalition Party (KOK) are the most popular parties among those over 55 with 20 percent support, and the third most popular is the Centre Party with 12 percent support.
Only 11 percent of those over 55 would vote for the Finns Party (PS).
Well, that wasn’t the logic in what I wrote; you just came up with that yourself.
The highest taxation doesn’t automatically mean the best society, nor does the lowest mean the worst. The best-functioning, most peaceful, and safest societies are usually those where taxes are reasonably high, such as the Nordic countries.
There are exceptions in both directions. The main problem is that it’s difficult to discuss these topics without it turning into a bickering match over values.
Of course, I can’t read your mind. In my opinion, your comment clearly implied that this was the case. But that’s a side note. It could have been a misunderstanding on my part as well.
Even now you are implying between the lines that taxation has some kind of causation with a “functioning, peaceful, and safe” society. This is bullshit.
In which EU capital were the most people shot last year? Does it have the lowest taxation in the EU?
And what about Finland? Has taxation, for example, dropped dramatically over the last ten years, given that parents in the Helsinki metropolitan area have to fear for their children’s safety? And what about the fact that healthcare is starting to go to shit these days?
You missed reading this part. After all, a functioning society is mostly built with money; Sweden has taken in a huge number of immigrants without investing in integration, meaning they’ve failed to utilize the benefits of a high tax rate. Ireland, on the other hand, seems to be some sort of tax haven, so there’s plenty of cash even with a lower tax rate. Switzerland is in a similar league.
In Norway, things work damn well overall, there’s plenty of money, a massive oil fund, and yet taxation remains high by international standards.
Things can be done in many ways: tax a lot and waste the money, tax a little and squander that too—there are plenty of combinations. It feels like within living memory, elections haven’t really focused on what the people want and what kind of tax rate that requires. Or I don’t know if that’s ever been discussed.
Elections should be held on whether we still want to maintain a welfare state or not, and based on the result, proceed with long-term adjustments to the overall tax rate in the chosen direction. The current state of affairs is quite a mess, with the right and the left taking turns tweaking things in their own direction.
At least for me, the current state of politics is frustrating as hell.
We haven’t been able to afford the current public sector for over ten years. Despite that, it has become bloated and more inefficient year after year.
And there is no political change in sight for it.
Well, what on earth now… can you provide even one source stating that Sweden hasn’t spent money on immigration? Which country has spent more than Sweden?
Well, at the very least it’s misdirected; something in social planning there has gone badly wrong. Such severe problems haven’t emerged elsewhere.
EK (Confederation of Finnish Industries) and other similar organizations in Finland have been strongly of the opinion that this is the reason for Sweden’s wealth. Perhaps there would have been room to put in even more.
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