Diversification, the investor's only free lunch

The content of the portfolio in the thread has seen a fair amount of discussion about the number of shares and diversification. This is a thread for continuing the discussion. First, a quote from the thread:

My own portfolio contains hundreds of investments, including stocks, ETFs, mutual funds, index funds, and balanced funds. One might argue that it’s impossible to beat the index with such a diversified portfolio. However, I justify each investment. I generally aim to find a reason to beat the index. Deep down, I still feel like a risk-averse person. When the market situation is worrying, I play it safe. I am by nature more of a value investor than a growth investor. I aim to beat the index over some time horizon with each of my investments. In principle, I do this by buying investments that can weather difficult times and provide cash flow, reinvesting that money. My portfolio’s overall costs remain low. Low-cost index funds and stocks incur no other costs than taxes on dividends. Average investors hold their investments for about two years. Those who hold them for longer than two years have been shown to perform better than average. I aim for holding periods of over 2 years. I try to ensure this by keeping 90% of the portfolio in a certain allocation and allowing myself a 5% “play portfolio”.

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Interesting opening :slight_smile:

Perhaps it’s good to understand that “concentration” and diversification are not necessarily trade-offs. That is, it’s clear that different “concentrated” investors perform differently, but it’s also good to note that the same applies to diversified investors.

Diversification can be carried out in many different ways; a portfolio can be allocated geographically, by industry, etc. Some seek diversification benefits from negatively correlated assets/stocks, some intentionally seek stocks with different Betas, etc. There are vast numbers of ways.

Diversification is probably an absolute truth as a positive investment decision. Of course, high risk can also lead to high returns, which often manifests, for example, in the case of unlisted companies (or other small firms) – a 100% owner entrepreneur carries considerable risk – and often wealth is also heavily tied up in the company. In these cases, risk can, of course, be limited by one’s own work input, expertise, and other measures.

How much “diversification” actually requires is another matter. I understand that full diversification benefits are achieved with an average weighting of almost 10%, and especially if one intends to be better than others specifically through this “diversification” – it is prudent to keep only a limited number of positions in the portfolio. If there are many positions, you cannot possibly perform better in all of them, at least not by virtue of informational advantage :slight_smile:

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It’s probably not a completely free lunch; at the very least, trading costs increase, as does the amount of work required for portfolio management, as one needs to be familiar with several targets. Having invested for about 20 years myself, I’ve noticed that by increasing diversification, one gets closer and closer to the index, which reduces losses, but also eliminates the possibility of outperformance. If one is not seeking returns above the index, then it’s not worth putting money into direct stock holdings but rather into index funds. If one puts money directly into stocks, in my opinion, they shouldn’t be diversified too much. Instead, one should look for a few targets whose business and cash flows can be thoroughly investigated, and whose operations can be sufficiently monitored. The time one can spend on hobbies is, after all, limited :slightly_smiling_face:

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Diversification has what are called “diminishing returns”. Because there’s a cost associated with tinkering with each stock, messing with too many will mostly benefit the broker, while your portfolio’s return approaches the index’s return.

Going all-in on 1 stock is foolish.

4-5 stocks, especially if they’re from slightly different sectors, already somewhat limit the risk of one stock underperforming. However, if you have so few stocks, they better be carefully selected A-list companies.

10-15 stocks is already a level of diversification where further diversification mostly just smooths out the return curve (shaving off some highs and lows). A single company going bankrupt (100% loss) no longer significantly shakes the entire portfolio, and a “normal” “oops, bad earnings report, -10%” only shows up as about a one percent drop in the total portfolio.

“Big boys” diversify more extensively mainly because they’re playing with such large sums that they simply can’t invest so much in just one company without starting to move the stock price. In such cases, dividing the sum among a few similar companies is justified. I’d argue that if your portfolio doesn’t have seven (or more) figures, this isn’t yet a problem for a small investor.

Edit: As an anecdote, I currently have 7 different stocks in my bag, which is exceptionally low due to a few strategic moves (I rebalanced my portfolio to be more corona-resistant due to a “second wave” and increased my cash holdings slightly; cash weighting is now ~15%). Before the latest move, the number was 9, which was quite close to where I want it to be. There’s still room to pick up something if a suitable opportunity arises, and I can still follow all companies quite well.

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There are, in principle, quite simple ways to beat the index. A simple example is rebalancing, i.e., not weighting the index by market value, but having an equal amount of all shares. If we then take the OMXH25 index as an example, one would buy those 25 stocks in the same proportion. The diversification mentioned above is sufficient. However, the portfolio lacks geographical diversification. There are different types of indices, is OMXH25 a good index? In terms of risk, for example, Putin’s green men could appear in Finland and then we would take a hit.

Another simple method to beat the index is to buy an index investment and then add a few carefully selected stocks. If the portfolio were, for example, an S&P500 index fund and Revenio, the result would be good. If Outokumpu were chosen alongside it, the result would be worse, but only a moderate loss to the index if the stock weight is kept below 10%.

A third simple method is to avoid the weakest stocks. For example, choose the 20 best-performing stocks in the OMXH25 by five-year capital return and leave out the worst ones. Or do the same with some valuation metric.

Investing, in Buffett’s words, is simple but difficult. He has a highly diversified but concentrated portfolio. Think about that.

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By the way, portfolio theory related to diversification has been nicely explained on MIT university’s YouTube channel, if anyone is interested and the theory isn’t familiar yet. Search for “portfolio theory MIT” for example, and it should come up.

I haven’t used direct factor modeling for parameters affecting the returns offered by different stocks, but I aim to diversify stock investments specifically through the interdependencies of key return drivers (as one part of the decisions). Additionally, when indices are highly valued, I start favoring companies with a low 2-year beta, whose development is more tied to their own actions than to market conditions. I probably wouldn’t think about this aspect too carefully if I were completely debt-free :slight_smile:

Edit: I don’t see that, for example, industry diversification would necessarily be that effective if the return drivers rely on the same factors.

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It’s good to remember that, compared to a broad index (which includes all stocks), outperformance and underperformance are a zero-sum game. For someone to beat the index, someone else must lose to the index. This is measured in euros. So, who “agrees” to lose to the index so others can beat it?

For example, if one tries to avoid the weakest stocks in the index or pick the best ones, someone else must agree to hold these future underperforming stocks. There aren’t many willing to do so :smiley: Indeed, every single stock has an owner, and few owners consciously want to lose to the market or even incur losses (there are stocks on the stock exchange that have lost almost all their value in recent years, but someone still owns them).

As a small investor, one can, of course, try to focus on a part of the market that one believes will perform better than the index (and which others have not yet discovered). But still, someone else must correspondingly lose the same amount to the index…

Regarding the extent of diversification, it’s true that about 20 sufficiently different stocks already diversify a large part of the company-specific risk. Assuming the companies are sufficiently different, for example, a portfolio of 20 airline stocks after the coronavirus might not have offered much diversification benefit. The other “extreme” is to buy broad index funds directly, which contain hundreds or thousands of stocks and through which one gets the average market return minus very small costs.

So, in summary - some must lose to the index for others to be able to beat it. Where are the losers?

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Results of Warren Fyffett’s academic research

The losers are those who invested in active funds. Based on Dalbar’s research, they don’t even get fund returns. Most likely at the Nordea and OP counters.

The winners are on Inderes’ forum :grin: :shushing_face:

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To this one can only say: “This is fine” :smiley:

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Diversification? So easy and yet so difficult.

To get a better grasp of the analysis, put on Norah Jones: Black Hole Sun from YouTube or similar on your TV.

Diversification in relation to what? In relation to individual stocks or companies, in relation to the industry, in relation to a geographical area, in relation to investment style, time, or what on earth? Easy and simple, just like life.

Rule one: diversification concerns your assets, not you.

Rule two: you have the free choice to make your assets, in this case, your money, do good or not care one bit.

No one wants their money to do evil, which is called pursuing maximum profit. The outcome of that is something entirely different. Fortunately, in recent years, responsible investing has yielded better returns than other types of investing. Quite interesting. Is it perhaps because non-responsible entities have stagnated anyway, while adaptable ones better consider the changing playing field, including responsibility? You tell me, but be careful not to take a political stance when discussing investments. The rhinos of the past are slowly fading away.

Rule three: Never, ever put more than 20% into one thing. Never, even if greed says otherwise.

Rule four is related to this. Your own head is always the best capital. Don’t fall in love, don’t even get infatuated with your brilliant investments. If you get excited about your investment, it’s easy to trick you. Everyone who has fallen for a pyramid scheme is sure that.

Rule five: Learn to laugh at yourself. Now, if I don’t act and put over 20% into one thing, the opportunity is gone. Laugh at your greed and caution at the same time, perhaps with your fist in your pocket, and state that you are not your greed nor your caution. You are you, and that’s enough. You can comfort yourself with a cider and the knowledge that statistically, only one in five has succeeded in this situation. If you’re still annoyed, think about your children’s future or something. Soon you’ll be able to laugh at the emotion on which all pyramid schemes are based.

The thread already explained the difference between a large bank’s stock/mixed/bond funds, ETFs, and direct stock investments.

You can play a sure game with ETFs by going with the flow. You won’t win big, but you won’t lose either, unless you happen to buy at the peak and panic when the value has dropped by 30%. What goes up, comes down, and vice versa. With an ETF, you can buy and forget more securely than, for example, with a single stock. It’s pointless for a forgetful person to pay the bank 1.5 - 2.5% annually for a fund (says even someone who owns several financial firms).

There is incorrect information higher up in the thread. The stock game is not a zero-sum game. On average, everyone wins, but not in practice; a small group wins a lot, and a large group loses.

When the effect of price changes is removed, the difference between gold and an average stock is that gold produces nothing, whereas stocks on average yield a profit every year. Gold is just gold, which is not yet known to multiply. The price of gold fluctuates up and down, but stocks are also shares in profit-making companies. Gold does not yield in the same way. Gold is a barren choice.

Stocks are a share in a company and entitle you to a portion of the profit, whether it is distributed as dividends or left in the company, which then increases its equity, which can later either be distributed as dividends or allowed to increase the company’s value.

If it’s a good company, the items remaining on the balance sheet go towards expanding the business. This happens within the company’s strong balance sheet. It is an investment. A thriving company won’t collapse from a couple of years of corona.

Investing in large bank funds is foolish due to fees, thinks Juurikki. ETFs are better but don’t offer an intellectual challenge. As an investor, you will soon learn how to reasonably evaluate individual stocks if you wish.

Juurikki believes it’s worth starting with just a few key ratios: P/B, P/E, debt-to-equity ratio, and estimated growth percentage. Nothing else is needed at first.

And it will surely comfort you to know that more experienced investors will start to overthink after this basic level and ultimately perform worse overall than you, even if they boast about winning tickets on the forum and keep silent about losing ones. Then they cry that the index cannot be beaten, the poor things.

Juurikki plays a boringly safe game of “doubling stock capital in 8-15 years is enough.” At these valuation levels, you won’t lose sleep, as it can’t go much lower.

If you feel that you understand the big picture of the economy, you can diversify with an ETF-based fund diversification. Juurikki played international growth with funds from 5-9/2020, and it went well. That was lucky. Now, the portfolio only contains direct holdings, all of which are profitable, and 20% cash waiting for Trump volatility.

What is your view of the period from 10/2020 onwards?

If you don’t have much experience, it’s advisable to make your own choices based on ETFs and other non-large bank funds, so that perhaps 20-35% goes into individual stocks.

So what stocks should one buy? On these forums, people mainly talk about bad companies, i.e., overpriced eternal growth promises, into which you can certainly put your money fine, but getting it back or making a long-term profit is another matter.

Juurikki doesn’t understand anything, but takes the rule seriously: P/B 0.5 - 1.5, P/E 7 - 15, debt-to-equity ratio under 40%, prospects good or even better, boringly stable, then it can’t go too wrong.

Rights are shared, and responsibility is shirked.

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That’s not what it was, but rather that stock picking is a zero-sum game relative to the index. So, stock market returns are positive, but collectively, all investors cannot beat the index, because all investors together own the market. In total, the crowd gets market returns, some above and some below, and index investors get the average. That’s why every investor who beats the index needs someone who loses to the index. In terms of euros, of course, the number of investors may be different.

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Sorry, my bad. I should always check, but I don’t always bother when these are written on a voluntary basis. I didn’t mean to offend or misrepresent your message. Have a good evening!

Diversification can be understood slightly differently depending on one’s age group. I am 57 years old, and I will share my understanding of diversification.

I am debt-free and own an apartment in Helsinki worth over 400k€. I don’t buy lottery tickets from the stock market; instead, I have “diversified” 100% of my shares into Fortum, of which I now own 9000 shares.

I see this stock ownership merely as an alternative to the 0% interest rate on a bank account. Fortum offers a nice 7% return on my spring purchase prices. I am not at all worried about the share price; rather, I think of this more as an interest income of 9000 shares * 1.10 €.

My pension will be approximately 4.5k€/month. If I understand my pension purely as investment income, which is about 5% of my investment capital, then:

Pension assets: 1 million €
Stock ownership (currently): 160k€
Apartment: 400k€

I consider this quite good diversification, even though I don’t have 7-100 different stocks. Robots drive the share prices, and when the crash comes, everything falls instantly.

And the comments from the naysayers are:

  • Pensions will never be received. Everything will collapse. I can say from my own situation that my age group has put more in than the average return, and the return percentage for the money I and my employers have put into the system is poor.
  • Apartment prices will fall. Everything will collapse. Fortunately, I live in a desirable detached house area, with low living costs and a large private plot.
  • Investing in one stock is foolish. Everything will collapse. And Fortum will go bankrupt, and the gas pipeline will rot :slight_smile:

That’s all I have..

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An apartment is a pretty good asset; its downside is that if you need money, you can’t sell a small portion of it (like 10%). Your only options are to either sell the entire apartment and move to a cheaper one, or take out a loan against the apartment.

This is a somewhat dangerous way of thinking. I fell into this trap myself once, and thank goodness I wasn’t dependent on a good dividend stream, as the dividend was drastically cut almost immediately after I bought the shares (and the share price simultaneously dropped due to the dividend cut). Sometimes companies can even stop paying dividends for a while if they run into problems. Even a good company can face unexpected issues, and at that point, the price usually drops faster than the dividend can be cut. This means that by the time news of a dividend cut comes out, the value of the holding has usually already decreased.

I have diversified somewhat, although my largest stock position is quite big, so I am more of a concentrator than a proper diversifier. Of course, in addition to my own apartment, I have a bit of forest, but clearly the largest part of my total wealth is in the stock market. Ultimately, total wealth determines the risk level.

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Thanks, Pappa, absolutely brilliant analysis! Uncle Masse, who is a bit ahead of Pappa and has already managed to cash in on some of Sanna and others’ pension benefits (and reinvest them in the stock market, editor’s note), is also in Forza with a nice 8.7% dividend yield calculated from the purchase price. Of course, Uncle, the scaredy-cat, hasn’t dared to go all-in on just Forza, but the number of OMXH companies tends to stay below 10, and that’s a good thing.

When you start accumulating money and age, risk-taking decreases and a protection mentality grows. Our rising youth, on the other hand, can throw their small amounts of money into quite risky targets, as even a 100% loss is so small in terms of money. This should be granted to them.

But: the bad side of mere conservatism is that it’s damn BORING! :slight_smile: That’s why the old uncle also enjoys the entertainment side of investing and keeps some risky growth rockets in his portfolio. Small tech firms are at the forefront. Exciting :sweat_smile: :star_struck: :laughing:

Uncle Masse, FA, everyone rows in their own style :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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Thanks Masse, you understand my cough (non-Covid) :smiley:

I also opened a tax-advantaged investment account (OST) last week, just for fun, as I’m a natural gambler.

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I idly looked at the worst performing stocks on the Helsinki stock exchange over the last 10 years and pondered who has really lost a lot of money, i.e., significantly underperformed the index. I selected a few stocks below that have generated at least a -75% loss and whose long-term owners I had some prior knowledge of:

  1. Valoe -99.8% - at least one major individual owner
  2. Stockmann -97% - Swedish-speaking foundations as major owners
  3. Outokumpu -93% - major owners include the state and pension investors (i.e., us)
  4. Tulikivi -88% - major family ownership
  5. SRV -87% - major family ownership
  6. Trainers’ House -84% - major individual owner
  7. HKScan -75% - LSO Osuuskunta (cooperative) as major owner

In these cases, permanent major owners have incurred huge losses. At least to my understanding, the ownership structure in these seven companies has not changed dramatically over the past ten years. This also shows that a visible main owner is not always a shortcut to success. In these companies, the main owners are so large that they can directly influence the company’s operations through board work, unlike companies with a broad ownership base.

So, it seems that there are indeed index underperformers even among large investors; some have incurred enormous losses while having the opportunity to influence the companies’ operations through the board. (This is slightly off-topic, but when picking companies with visible ownership, it’s worth keeping an eye on who you’re in the same boat with.)

At the same time, this list (and the entire list of underperformers) also tells us about diversification: even if you choose companies of different sizes, from different industries, etc., a worst-case diversified portfolio can generate huge losses despite diversification, even during a bull market (the last ten years).

A portfolio of the ten worst stocks would have lost approximately -90% of its value (which requires the portfolio to increase tenfold to break even). Conversely, a portfolio composed of the best companies would have brought fabulous returns. This shows how the dispersion of returns can be taken to extremes.

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In my opinion, your list is full of lottery tickets. Nokia could be on that list too :grin:

With that kind of weight, it’s worth keeping a close eye on that egg basket:
https://www.nordnet.fi/blogi/osto-stockmann/
A sure dividend of 6.7% was there too.

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I think I have a well-diversified stock portfolio and I’m happy with it, but the stock allocation is large, which exposes me significantly to market risk. Lightening the portfolio doesn’t interest me much because it would result in substantial tax consequences.

I believe the price of gold will rise, so about 10% of my portfolio is in gold.

But otherwise, I’ve been considering diversifying into other asset classes that wouldn’t correlate as much with the stock market. How have you acted in this situation?

In a 0% interest rate world, interest-bearing instruments don’t interest me, and what other options are left? Peer-to-peer loans don’t interest me right now because I’m afraid regulation in that area will also worsen.

In the Covid crash, only the USD rose, so could that be a place for diversification? If you’ve bought dollars, is it purely cash, or have you gone into it with some kind of x3 instruments? Nordnet probably didn’t have those.

How about inverse ETFs or purely options to protect the portfolio? Gold has generally been a safe haven, but in March it also crashed, and I speculate that if some “black swan” event occurs, it will also fall along with stocks.

Thanks for your answers!

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