Inderes Coffee Room (Part 10)

This is an exciting case indeed. We won’t have to wait long for the truth, though; as those Verge motorcycles are delivered to customers in March, we certainly won’t have to wait long for customer reactions. In the spring, the internet will be full of test videos and comments, so we’ll see if it turned out to be Finland’s very own Intellego or Nvidia.

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If this is BS, then I have to say the CEO has committed the most spectacular career suicide possible. If not, then we’ll soon be in the same league as Jensen Huang. :sweat_smile:

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Yeah, right, and if you want to buy that famous bridge, Elon Musk will also deliver the customer-prepaid new Tesla Roadster in 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027 :grin:

It’s easy for Verge to follow Musk’s lead and delay delivery until the end of the year and then into future years without returning any money. They get free marketing for their other bikes and the brand, and a new lifeline for a badly suffering business in the form of new bike orders and funding collected from customers.

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The difference between Finland and the States. In the US, when an innovation is introduced, the first reactions are praise, encouragement, and pride. In Finland, the reactions are always that you’re lying, it won’t succeed, and there’s no point in even trying. Sure, there are always a few Theranoses in the mix, but we should still appreciate it when people are at least trying. And I don’t mean that you should invest in it in any way. A positive atmosphere costs nothing.

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How many bikes has Verge delivered to customers by now? They have been sold for many years already, but how many have been delivered?

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Should we return to a time when science provided the yardstick—and an ever-correcting yardstick at that?

Can you die from frustration? :thinking::eyes:

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It goes without saying that I haven’t bought Metso (or any other stock that has risen well) since that pondering. :smiling_face_with_tear:

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Hi. How do you find stocks on Nordnet with the following criteria: average net income positive (not in the red), reasonable debt ratio, preferably growing revenue, and even small-cap!! :slight_smile: When I try to search for Finnish “future hope” stocks, it usually falls through because those criteria aren’t all met, not to mention my own additional criteria.

Let’s take Sotkamo Silver as an example. When you bought it, was its average net income in the red in the financial statements? Was it a small market-cap company? I assume not?

There are big promises in the Donut Lab video, hopefully the product is in the promised condition!

An interesting alternative for heavy transport electrification in the video - Cova Trailers - electrifying trailers with DonutLabs electric motors and new batteries - a clever approach that could be better than electrifying the tractor unit!

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I’m personally wondering how this works in slippery conditions. Is there some standard plug in tractor units through which data moves back and forth with the trailer? I don’t think there was such a thing when I was driving 15 years ago. There needs to be pretty much real-time standardized communication between the truck and the trailer, so it doesn’t end up with the trailer pushing the tractor-trailer combination into a jackknife. If this isn’t a standard feature in trucks, this won’t really work in the big picture.

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This donut thing sounds too good to be true, even though Siilasmaa himself is on the company’s board. So, Donut Lab is owned through some route by Verge Motorcycles, which underwent some corporate restructuring in the summer of 2025. Originally, the company was founded in 2018, at which time its name was RMK Vehicle Corporation. At some point, the name changed to Verge Motorcycles Oy. At least originally, the bikes were intended to be manufactured in Finland, but in 2022, Verge Motorcycles OÜ was established in Estonia, where it seems the bikes have since begun production.

You can obtain those financial statements from the Estonian Business Register free of charge. The loss in the last financial year (2024) was over 10 million euros, and for example, net working capital was negative by 1,117,474 euros. You can get fairly good information about companies’ sales figures from Estonia. Some bikes have been sold, but not exactly a huge number. Revenue for the entire financial year was 1,048,163 euros.

According to the financial statements, Verge Motorcycles OÜ’s parent company is Verge Motorcycles Oy. This aforementioned corporate restructuring took place this summer, in which Verge Motorcycles Oy was split into three new companies: Verge Motorcycles Oy (with a new Business ID, the old one has ceased), Donut Defence Holding Oy (Esox Group Oy as of November 3, 2025), and Donut Holding Oy. These three companies were all registered in the Trade Register on September 30, 2025. To dig deeper into this Finnish setup, one would probably have to buy financial statements from Virre, and they won’t even be available for these newest ones until 2027 at the earliest due to a long exceptional financial year. This information about the demerger is visible just from the Trade Register extracts.

Lest the corporate structure be too simple, a demerger was also carried out at Verge Motorcycles OÜ, where its business operations were transferred to Verge Motorcycles Development OÜ (100% owned by Verge Motorcycles Oy), Donut Lab Development OÜ (90% owned by Donut Holding Oy and 10% by Donut Group Oy), and Donut Lab OÜ (50% owned by each Donut Holding Oy and Donut Group Oy).

Several of the companies share the address of the Roschier law firm in Helsinki, which likely handled this corporate restructuring—of which I personally understand nothing. However, largely the same people rotate on the boards of these partner companies. Esox Group Oy, which markets Donut Lab’s drones etc., belongs to the same corporate entity, and the other customer is then the parent company Verge Motorcycles Oy. As I understand it, Marko Lehtimäki is also on the board of the partner company Nordic Nano Group Oy, which operates at the Imatra production facility. So the partners are by no means independent of each other; rather, the track is now just open for orders. In other words, the hardest part is ahead, where few succeed.

I also read those threads on LinkedIn where the product’s authenticity has been questioned, and this caught my eye. Apparently, there is no patent, and it seems one hasn’t even been applied for.

If this is such a revolutionary innovation, is there any reason why they haven’t rushed with the patent? I don’t really understand anything about battery technology, but you’d think they would establish a moat for such a patent and prevent competitors from copying it. If someone takes the battery apart, as per the CEO’s words, won’t it at that point at the latest become clear what kind of technology is used in the battery, since it has been kept secret until now?

I’m not very convinced by this so far, but I sincerely hope this doesn’t prove to be just marketing talk and that it’s real. We probably won’t have to wait long before we can read more about these bikes equipped with the new battery in the papers.

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Everyone here is probably more or less skeptical, as are the articles written by the media. But should we give the guys a chance to prove their claims?

Who will be putting on the dunce cap if the claims about the battery turn out to be even roughly true?

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Sometimes it can be more beneficial for a company to keep a method or technology as a trade secret instead of patenting it, because a patent can reveal too much information to potential competitors. As I understand it, this is quite common.

and

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They have already had the chance to prove their claims and chose not to take it, so their credibility is now shot. If this small team without any significant operations has indeed managed to develop mystery battery technology worth hundreds of billions, which according to their reported specs is set to displace all other commercial battery solutions on the market, then I at least promise to put on that dunce cap. I don’t know how many more weeks we are supposed to wait for the announcement of the largest corporate acquisition in Finnish history, where some larger battery sector firm would snatch that outfit off the market.

However, we have plenty of genuine startup success stories to admire, such as Oura, which could well overtake Nokia in valuation in the coming years. Not every propeller-head’s garage contraption needs to be taken seriously.

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The guys certainly took a peculiar angle heading to CES to revolutionize the world. Personally, I might have brought along some 3rd-party research for support, but I guess that works too. Verge actually makes and delivers real bikes, and Donut makes and delivers real motors, so why on earth would they bullshit with a miracle battery when they’re dead certain to get caught within days, weeks, or months at the latest? They have everything to lose here, don’t they? Unless…

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Hi fellow investors.

A quick update.

Well, the flights and hotel are now booked. For the first time in my life. Since I’m turning half a century, it’s time to celebrate properly. Later this spring.

We’re heading to Europe and the hotel is top-tier luxury. A real high-end place.

It’s booked but not paid for, yet. I was thinking of selling some stocks to pay for it. Six adults. Dad’s paying. The whole year was quite a slog, but things started happening toward the end of the year and the start of '26. It feels bad to liquidate, but on the other hand, it’s not wrong at all. In principle, the trip is “nearly free”; I could almost pay for it with the market gains. However, Seppo Saario advises selling the weakest holdings first if you need cash. Keep the portfolio strong, not weak. -As Sepi said. We’ll see what kind of solution I end up with.

But greetings from here in the boonies. Legit. Slay. Banger. 67. Skibidi.

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There’s a fair amount of irony here as well. I remember how, since the 90s, there have been loud calls on betting forums for the Veikkaus monopoly to be dismantled. Professional betting has nevertheless been possible all along on foreign sites. Now that the current government is breaking up the Veikkaus monopoly, the whole thing is going completely south and professional gambling will likely become impossible.

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I’ve been thinking a bit about that Donut Labs battery thing from the perspective of what if it’s actually for real. In that case, there are several different paths for how things could progress. Let’s assume that Verge motorcycles are delivered to customers this spring and the experiences validate the company’s claims. What next?

Some big consortium or firm snaps up Donut-Nano-Verge for a purchase price of 3 billion euros, and production is moved elsewhere. A laboratory unit and a few suddenly wealthy guys will remain in Finland, of course, but what after that? Nothing for the national economy.

Donut-Nano-Verge continues as an independent entity but brings in some venture capitalists and scales operations not just in Finland, but also elsewhere in the world. The company’s headquarters is in Helsinki, where corporate taxes are paid, and in 5 years, when positive cash flow starts to accumulate, it will come in by the billions. This is the new Nokia and will cover Finland’s state deficits for the foreseeable future.

Donut-Nano-Verge continues as an independent entity but leases the technology/manufacturing process—which is now protected by patents—to thousands of companies towards the end of 2026. The company also grows in Finland, but royalties start pouring in at a massive scale. Corporate taxes collected for the state will already reach a billion in 2027. This is just the beginning.

How do you see the future yourself, if this is indeed the battery bonanza come to life?

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In a couple of weeks, the scam will start to be clear to everyone and no one will really remember the company for anything other than timontti’s good memes :wink:

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Data point for the Donut Lab saga

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I’ve been thinking a bit about the self-driving capabilities of cars, and I’ve come to the conclusion that I wouldn’t dare hop in for a trip on a steep mountain road if the car was in charge of the driving and you couldn’t even hold the steering wheel when you’re scared. Not that I’m going on a trip like that in this lifetime anyway.

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