Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Greetings everyone!

A Porsche tracking thread has been missing from this forum. I’ll clarify right at the start that this thread discusses Porsche AG (officially Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG), whose ticker is P911. This should not be confused with Porsche SE, which is a publicly listed holding company whose primary holdings are Volkswagen and Porsche AG. How such a cross-ownership entanglement came about dates back over 15 years, when Porsche attempted a hostile takeover of Volkswagen. It involved interesting ownership maneuvers and power struggles between the Piëch and Porsche families, which are probably not necessary to delve into further in this context. Anyone can learn more about them, for example, using Wikipedia. The most important thing is that the ownership structures are at least somewhat sensible at the moment, and they are shown in the diagram below:

Porsche began its stock market journey at the end of September 2022, after Volkswagen listed its shares in an IPO. In my opinion, Volkswagen ultimately made a foolish move from its own perspective, and the timing of the listing was delayed enough that the most extravagant prices for Porsche were missed. Volkswagen hasn’t really done anything sensible with the cash received from the listing, but as a result of everything, this luxury car manufacturer is now an independent publicly traded company. Since last year, its independence has grown as financial relationships with the parent company have been clarified.

Over the years, I have owned both Porsche SE (a terrible chronic value trap) and Volkswagen (always disappointed my expectations). I have been following Porsche’s stock market journey very closely all along. At the time of the IPO, I was unable to buy shares, and after the stock price started a rather vigorous ascent, I concluded that the company didn’t quite fit my strategy. However, the price has come down, and in mid-January of this year, I determined that the stock was at a buying level according to my parameter preferences. The dividend yield is still too small for now, but presumably growing. My buying decision was based on both the company’s strong financials and, in my opinion, favorable future prospects. I also like Porsche’s products, although I have no direct contact with them other than having spent a lot of time tinkering with an engine designed by Porsche.

Strong financials are evident in Porsche’s financial statement published today, the key figures of which are here:


The latest financial figures and investor presentation can be found here: Financial Information | Porsche AG .

Porsche is an extremely profitable automotive company, and its P/E ratio at today’s closing price is 15.9. Its market capitalization is approximately 82 billion euros, which is very much in the same league as another sports car manufacturer, Ferrari, whose market capitalization is 75 billion euros. Ferrari’s valuation is in a completely different class, with a P/E ratio of 56. Compared to Ferrari, Porsche is currently priced very moderately, although compared to other German car manufacturers, Porsche is indeed expensive. The consensus of analysts’ target prices is currently 95 euros, but I would expect them to rise with today’s financial statement. The stock price, at least, was in a lively upward trend, ending up 11.47% in the positive.

Porsche’s sales have been very good, considering it is a rather expensive product. The development of sales volumes is shown in the following table:

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The current year will not be a year of significant growth; instead, the guidance was very flat:

The reason for zero growth is related to the model range renewal. All models have either just been renewed or are soon to be renewed. The Cayenne and Macan are currently in such a limbo, and the new 911, important for its image, will be introduced in the middle of the year. The company’s own assumption is that sales volumes will increase after the launches. I don’t believe they are wrong about that. Porsche’s operating logic is not the same as mass manufacturers, and this manufacturer is not going into car discount sales. Interestingly, among luxury products, Porsche is currently rated as the most valuable brand: Brandirectory

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Here is a three-hour-plus deep dive on Porsche from Acquired.

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Thanks for that cross-ownership chart, I couldn’t make any sense of that setup just by reading the companies’ disclosures :grin:

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It was indeed a complex setup, but even more confusing was figuring out how the euros move between accounts in this separation. I mean, what Porsche’s cash position actually ends up looking like. I didn’t fully get to the bottom of it until the company announced that the transactions were over.

Regarding that ownership structure, I think the most important thing to note is that only 12.5% of Porsche’s shares are free float. The holdings of Porsche SE and Volkswagen do not move, so only a bit over 10 billion worth of shares are being traded.

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Even though this might be slightly off-topic for the thread, can you say what the explanatory factor is here? Why is Porsche SE a chronic value trap? With those ownership stakes, the market value should presumably be close to 0.31 * 65 + 0.125 * 81 = 30 billion, but in reality, it is 15 billion. Why? Shouldn’t this eventually lead to either a very high dividend yield or a continuous ballooning of the cash position?

And a somewhat similar line of reasoning applies to Volkswagen, of course. Its market value is 65 billion, its stake in Porsche is worth 59 billion, and its net cash is 40 billion. Makes no sense?

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https://www.tradingview.com/news/reuters.com,2024:newsml_L3N3FQ3S7:0-vehicle-software-maker-applied-intuition-raises-250-mln-from-porsche-others/
Porsche’s share price development is also at an interesting stage, and I have personally been waiting a long time for a bottom to be found. It is now starting to look likely that 72 could be that level, as long as the market finishes digesting the earnings results. EV is around 88bn, with 10.5bn in debt.

Personally, I see that Porsche/Ferrari are the kind of automakers for whose internal combustion engine cars there will be demand for a long time, if legislation remains flexible regarding deadlines. Electrification consumes capital, and they naturally need to succeed with it right away. There is always demand for quality.

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Thanks for opening the thread. Doesn’t the chart specifically support buying Volkswagen shares, considering that within about the last 6 months, one could have bought Volkswagen VOW3 shares for under €100? By buying Volkswagen, you gain exposure to the success of Porsche (P911). At least Peter Seligson has touted VOW3 as a “free stock” when you consider everything you get through owning it.

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In my opinion, Volkswagen’s market cap makes no sense, but Porsche SE’s decline is more understandable. It is indeed a hilarious “discount percentage,” but the reason behind it is Porsche SE’s poorly timed move regarding the Porsche AG IPO. In order for Porsche SE to subscribe to those Porsche AG shares, it had to take on a massive amount of debt. This was done just as interest rates began to rise significantly. Previously, Porsche SE was a debt-free company. Porsche SE isn’t in any trouble with its debt, but it certainly weighs on them at the moment.

Yes, I think it supports that too, but Porsche doesn’t seem overpriced either. I just wrote about that incomprehensible situation in the Volkswagen thread. As can be seen from that chart, Volkswagen owns 75% of the shares of the listed Porsche AG. Calculated at the current price, the value of these shares is over 59 billion euros. Volkswagen’s total market capitalization is 65 billion at the current price. Volkswagen’s net cash position is 40.3 billion. In addition, by buying the share, you get a stake in the auto business, which generates 18 billion euros in profit annually.

But no more about this situation in this thread.

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Returning to the news and analyst updates following the event organized by Porsche in Leipzig.

The headlines highlighted at least the strong start to sales of the all-electric Macan. According to Oliver Blume, the E-Macan has already received over 10,000 orders, and set expectations have been clearly exceeded.

There were also many questions and a 45-minute Q&A session at the analyst event. Here are direct links to the audio recording of Porsche’s Analyst and Investor Conference 2024 presentation, the Q&A, and the slides, should you wish to return to them later.

https://investorrelations.porsche.com/en/annual-call-2024

Porsche’s cautious profitability outlook for 2024 seemed to be the focus of the Q&A session. Questions were asked in this order:

    • 2 min. - Goldman Sachs
    • 7 min. - Deutsche Bank
    • 13 min - UBS
    • 16 min. - BNP Paribas
    • 18 min. - HSBC
    • 23 min - Societe Generale
    • 26 min. - Citi
    • 30 min. - BofA
    • 35 min. - Bernstein
    • 40 min. - Stifel

https://a.storyblok.com/f/274296/x/53811f56f0/fy-2023-presentation.pdf

In the long, 70-page presentation, the financial figures only appear toward the end. Here is an image regarding capital allocation:
Porsche FY2023 - 2

Financial Times published a comment on Porsche’s situation a couple of days ago. The article was free to read, at least for today. It briefly recapped the content of this week’s event. Additionally, the FT highlighted Ferrari’s strong performance compared to Porsche. According to the article, the success of Porsche’s electric cars requires a reduction in production costs, and there is still a long way to go. In the FT’s view, significant patience is still required from investors, as noted by a Bernstein analyst.

“Porsche forecasts sluggish EV demand this year, anticipating penetration as low as 2023’s level of 13 per cent. That looks overly conservative given the company has ambitions to increase EV sales to 50 per cent by 2025 and has new electric models due out this year, say analysts at Bernstein.”

https://www.ft.com/content/410e33d7-1b30-4453-a6b3-d5c538e0ba02

From the graph in the FT article, one can notice that Ferrari’s stock has developed quite nicely since the beginning of 2023. Ferrari went public in the fall of 2015, and the IPO price was $53. On the NYSE, the stock price is over $420, and it has already gained 25% since the beginning of the year.

Porsche is also followed by the German-language financial magazine Der Aktionär. This week, the magazine published two short pieces on analyst updates. Based on the reports, the majority of analysts seem to trust that in 2025, Porsche will be able to return to its usual level of profitability. The articles briefly recapped recommendations from analysts at Societe Generale, JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs, Bernstein, and Deutsche Bank.

An article published by Morningstar on the 15th quotes a Citi analyst. Hendrikse estimates that Porsche’s transformation will take time, and the effects on pricing and profitability will not filter through fully right away. https://www.morningstar.com/news/marketwatch/20240315232/porsches-stock-climbs-as-luxury-brand-touts-dividend-hike-model-launches

“This is now happening - but the full impact on pricing and profitability will take time, and now come from a lower base. FY25E should be a better year with all the products available, but obviously FY25E EPS [earnings per share] will also likely now be lower. While there could be a potential buying opportunity later in FY24, we think many investors will await for improved sales and earnings momentum,” said the Citi analysts

Consensus?
I looked through the content of Porsche AG’s investor pages and, despite my searches, could not find a listing of analysts following the company or a consensus.

More comprehensive headlines regarding analyst updates seem to be available at least through the dpa-AFX news feed and the MarketScreener website. Through those, I found 7 updates from this week and a couple of updates from previous months. MarketScreener lists a total of 15 analysts following Porsche, so about half of the consensus would have updated their forecasts this week. Here is a list in chronological order:

Porsche AG Consensus
Broker Analyst Date Recommendation Target Price (€)
JPMorgan Jose Asumendi 14.3.2024 Buy (Buy) 120 (120)
Oddo BHF Anthony Dick 14.3.2024 Buy 105 (95)
Bernstein Daniel Roeska 13.3.2024 Neutral 88 (90)
Deutsche Bank Tim Rokossa 13.3.2024 Buy (Buy) 100 (100)
Societe Generale Stephen Reitman 13.3.2024 Buy 100
Goldman Sachs George Galliers 12.3.2024 Buy 103
Jefferies Philippe Houchois 12.3.2024 Hold 80
UBS Patrick Hummel 12.3.2024 Buy 104
DZ Bank Michael Punzet 9.2.2024 Buy (Hold) 98 (115)
Barclays Henning Cosman 19.1.2024 Equal Weight 80 (90)
alphavalue Adrien Brasey
Berenberg Romain Gourvil
Citigroup Harald Hendrikse
RBC Tom Narayan
Stifel Daniel Schwarz

[Sources: MarketScreener (https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/PORSCHE-AG-144458103/news/) and dpa-AFX, from which a screenshot is provided below.

Porsche - dpa-AFX (4)

As an addition, a couple of points could be mentioned regarding AlphaValue and Porsche.

  • AlphaValue initiated coverage of Porsche in October 2023. A short blog post about the initiation of coverage can be found here: https://www.alphavalue.com/Blog/coverage-initation-porsche-ag
  • At the beginning of March, AlphaValue published an article on Porsche, the beginning of which is free to read, while the full article is for clients only. In this piece as well, the analyst highlights Porsche’s problems and the importance of the electric E-Macan model as the first model built on Porsche’s high-end Premium Platform Electric (PPE) architecture. The actual analysis remains behind a paywall, so this article doesn’t reveal much about the stock analysis itself either.

https://www.alphavalue.com/Blog/idea-kicker-porsches-e-macan-derived-growth-is-not-worth-a-911-pe

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A couple of questions for those more familiar with the company:

  1. Has Volkswagen publicly commented on that 75% ownership stake? Are there plans to sell off the entire position / at least a significant portion?
  2. What kind of change is expected in Porsche’s profitability as the share of EV sales grows? In 2023, it seems 12.8% of sales were BEVs, and for this year, the guidance is for a 13-15% share. I couldn’t find any mention of the EV segment’s profitability/expectations in Porsche’s materials. Of course, Porsche is targeting quite excellent returns on capital in the future as well, so apparently, the EV transition won’t significantly hurt profitability.

A very interesting case and, in my opinion, the valuation is at least interesting based on these fundamentals. The main thing dampening my enthusiasm is precisely Volkswagen’s mammoth ownership in the background.

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Later today, Porsche will report its first-quarter results. It is expected that there will be a decline compared to a year ago, as sales are currently in a dip due to model updates. On the 10th of this month, the delivery figures were already known and were as follows:

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The upper one shows the total volume and the lower one the share of electric vehicles.

My own interest is focused on comments regarding orders for the new Macan. It may be, however, that not much is being shared about that matter yet. The first test drive reports for this car have appeared on YouTube, and based on the journalists’ hype, I would assume sales will get off to a good start. For example, here is one relatively comprehensive test drive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG6EZr6uP00&t=999s&ab_channel=savagegeese

Porsche released its first-half results a little over a week ago. The result was expectedly weak due to the model refresh. The stock price has fallen in the wake of the rest of the automotive sector, and the semi-annual report brought further declines. The most disappointing aspect was the profit warning, which was caused by a force majeure situation at an aluminum parts supplier following flooding. Consequently, guidance had to be revised downwards, as planned production volumes cannot be reached.

In itself, the semi-annual report was quite good and encouraging reading. In my opinion, the most important takeaway was this slide from the investor presentation, which showed the delivery volumes of different models:

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The slide clearly shows the impact of the model refresh. The update is most significantly visible in the demand for the Taycan. I’m not surprised at all, as the updated version seems much better compared to the previous one. Since the details of the updated version were released, I’ve found it a bit strange that anyone would still order the older version. The newcomer has already been tested in Finland as well:

The updated model has received a lot of praise, and most recently I came across this EV track comparison by Tekniikan Maailma, where the top-tier Taycan model received full points:

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The growth in Cayenne sales clearly shows that sales rise again after a refresh. Most interesting is the 911, presumably the highest-margin model, whose sales continue to grow despite the model refresh. Initial reviews of the new “hybrid” powertrain have been nothing but glowing:

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Once upon a time, there was a guy X who liked German cars. Ferrari went public in 2015. Guy X bought Mercedes shares. Later, the same guy exchanged the shares for Porsche during the 2022 IPO. Guy Y, on the other hand, only owned Ferrari shares. What happened? :wink:

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Here is an article from SalkunRakentaja about Porsche.

Porsche also continues to advance its Road to 20 efficiency program. In 2024, the program significantly helped to partially compensate for the negative effects of a challenging operating environment on earnings. In the future, it will become a key tool in achieving the company’s long-term target of an operating profit margin of over 20 percent.

“In 2025, we will again intensify the Road to 20 program, with a particular focus on the cost structure,” says Member of the Executive Board, responsible for Finance and IT, Jochen Breckner.

Subheadings:

  1. Several reasons for the decline in profitability
  2. Porsche shakes up its structures
  3. What is Porsche doing in the United States?
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Here is SalkunRakentaja’s article about Porsche’s history, so this article doesn’t really contain any up-to-date information for investors, but it’s quite interesting and okay nonetheless. :slight_smile:

In recent years, Porsche has faced challenges, especially in the electric car market. Sales of the electric model Taycan decreased by as much as 49 percent in 2024 compared to the previous year, and the demand for electric cars has not met the company’s expectations.

Global sales figures have also been declining, and this has been reflected in the company’s financial results and share value. In five years, nearly 50 percent of the share’s value has eroded.

Porsche will drop out of Germany’s DAX index in September and will be replaced by Scout24. Porsche’s share price has fallen sharply, due to US auto tariffs, weak demand from China, and the slow pace of electrification.

The company’s management promised to return to the DAX soon.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/04/autos-porsche-to-drop-out-of-germanys-dax-index-as-us-tariffs-bite.html

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The Bloomberg article below reports that Porsche is facing challenges because delays in its electric vehicles, weak demand in China, and US tariffs are weighing on its results.

The company’s forecasts have fallen sharply, and its margin for 2025 is expected to be only two percent.

The article does not have a paywall.:slightly_smiling_face:

“It will take time and money to reset the product program to provide the flexibility and drive-train choices that its customers are demanding,” Bernstein said in a note to investors.

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According to the German newspaper Bild, Porsche’s management is reportedly changing soon.

According to a report citing six anonymous sources, the company’s supervisory board will vote on a new appointment in the near future.

https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/porsche-board-agrees-on-ceo-successor-for-oliver-blume--report-93CH-4293748

Porsche is getting a new boss, as Michael Leiters will become CEO on January 1, 2026, replacing Oliver Blume, who will continue as Volkswagen’s boss.

Leiters has a background from McLaren, Ferrari, and even from within Porsche. According to the article below, Blume leaves behind strong results, an IPO, and an expanded global footprint.

https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/porsche-names-michael-leiters-as-new-ceo-starting-january-2026-93CH-4295199

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