Does anyone know if Donutlab is a subsidiary of Verge?
At least Springvestâs share price is surging quite a bit today. As far as I understand, Springvest owns 0.6% of Verge.
All signs point to it:
Donut Lab operates as a subsidiary and R&D arm of Verge
(source)
Last autumn, Verge Motorcycle split into three new companies, one of which is the startup company Donut Lab, specializing in the electrification of transport. In connection with the demerger, Springvest received shares in these three new companies in a proportion corresponding to the Verge shares they previously held.
Edit: added a more specific quote from Arvopaperi.
There is discussion in the Coffee Room and in the transport powertrain thread. And in the meme thread, of course 
6 Likes
If you look at the Battery Doctorâs analysis of that, it definitely smells fishier than Summa and Valoe combined.
5 Likes
My take:
Negatives
- Inherently skeptical because the claims are so unbelievable
- Evidence is completely lacking (submitting the battery to an independent expert for verification)
- Markoâs AI video
Positives
- My interpretation is that the UK partner Watt has already integrated the batteries into their own EV platform. I donât believe this would be possible if the claims were completely exaggerated. I assume that Watt has tested the batteries themselves and found them to be functional
- Siilasmaa and Taneli Tikka
- The background of the key personnel is not suspicious / linked to scams. What would they have to gain if the whole thing is a scam? They have more to lose
- Building the cluster determinedly in stealth mode makes it seem like they want to own, build, and scale up production themselves, rather than selling quickly to the US or China
9 Likes
Verge has agile visibility management. When standing out was an advantage, they secured Mika HĂ€kkinen as their brand ambassador, yet they are still able to switch to stealth mode when the uniqueness of the product is too valuable to be revealed to others. In my opinion, there is a good chance that the Americans wonât snatch up a scale-ready product for a pittance.
3 Likes
Iâm not an expert, but this case is interesting enough that I tried to look into it a bit more closely.
My interpretation is that this isnât a pure scam. There are names too big behind it for that. However, itâs not a breakthrough in battery technology either. This wouldnât be possible for several reasons (incl. resources, time), and it wouldnât make any sense to launch a hundred-billion Nobel-level breakthrough in a Verge motorcycle. The Battery Doctorâs (Akkutohtori) video was made from the perspective that this would be a real battery. If itâs not actually a battery, a significant part of the Battery Doctorâs criticism can be ignored. Though not all of it.
As already analyzed in several sources, it is likely specifically a supercapacitor, or in the case of the motorcycle, a combination of a traditional battery and a capacitor. This would explain most of the claims, but not, for example, the energy density. This could still be marketing exaggeration, and the final production version might not necessarily reach the promised energy density. A supercapacitor-type solution also apparently wouldnât scale very logically to the size of a car or heavy equipment, which would explain the launch in a motorcycle. Even so, the schedule sounds ambitious, to say the least.
Iâll add an AI-generated summary of the topic below. Its purpose is to summarize what has been gathered based on various YouTube analyses and articlesâthe analysis itself is not based solely on AI.
Why a supercapacitor would be the most credible explanation for the claims:
-
5â10 min charging â normal for a supercapacitor-based solution
-
100,000 cycles â completely credible, even conservative
-
no 80% charging limits â a characteristic of a capacitor
-
solid-state â technically possible without a lithium battery
Where the limits are met:
-
energy density is inevitably clearly weaker than in a battery
-
higher self-discharge â poor for long-term storage
-
does not alone explain the â600 km rangeâ
What this means for Verge:
-
the supercapacitor likely acts as a power buffer
-
the actual energy storage is a traditional battery (Li-ion or Na-ion)
-
the end result could be:
-
extremely fast charging
-
good acceleration and regeneration
-
long service life
but not a battery revolution nor a super-long range with a supercapacitor alone
-
Bottom line:
A technically sensible and likely functional solution for a motorcycle.
However, the marketing term âsolid-state batteryâ is misleading â it is likely a supercapacitor hybrid, not a new battery chemistry.
11 Likes
A couple of selected items, new to me, regarding the Donut Lab solid-state saga (continuation of yesterdayâs).
Visa Siekkinen: One must understand the seriousness of the claim https://x.com/visaskn/status/2009229328496603390
Good points and questions (although there have been quite credible counter-arguments regarding patenting). It makes one skeptical.
Marko LehtimÀki at CES
The interviewer is very uncritical, but itâs an interesting clip.
[3:12]
Are you guys saying what those materials are?
-Weâre not sharing today, there are some trade secrets there. Obviously very soon somebodyâs gonna open up one of these, do a scan and try to figure it out.
Hopefully very soon indeed! Maybe to the Battery Doctor (Akkutohtori) for testing. If everything is just empty hype or a scam, theyâve certainly got some nerve. 
And a convincing delivery.
Meta: should Donut Lab be added to the name of this thread since they are part of the same group of companies? Perhaps the Coffee Room isnât the right thread for these in the long run? Edit: Thanks to the admins 
6 Likes
Quite a setup (images from the notes to the 2024 financial statements and the demerger plan balance sheet).. 
8 Likes
Itâs not very rare for a parent company to have its own subsidiaries in different countries. For example, Google has its own subsidiary in several different countries, including Finland. Link below. This is likely largely related to corporate taxation and also to the fact that a specific countryâs revenue and profit, etc., can be easily itemized in accounting. Additionally, if a subsidiary in a certain country goes bankrupt or faces other problems involving, for instance, liabilities, they stay within that entity and do not spread to the parent company. The subsidiary structure acts as a good firewall between units, although it does bring along internal bureaucracy.
6 Likes
Yeah, and since that Estonian company owns the majority, theyâve probably been seeking that tax benefit as well, as in Estonia, a company doesnât have to pay corporate tax if the money is left for the companyâs use.
5 Likes
Iâll add a link here to my post in another thread. The post contains a link to a fairly long X thread where Donut Lab, its connections, past, technology, and personnel are dissected quite deeply. No verdict has been passed on the company, but thereâs a lot of information if you want to do your own due diligence based on it.
The thread looks like it might have been made with the help of AI. At least the volume of data and the format suggest that to me, in my opinion. Especially since the thread appeared just a day after the CES launch, and a thread like that isnât built in a day or even two by oneself.
In my view, this is certainly the most interesting company this winter. At least so far. Iâm eagerly awaiting those motorcycle deliveries in the spring, after which we might get some third-party verified facts about that battery gadget. In the meantime⊠
4 Likes
It might be a bit of a stretch, but could the Imatra production unit have some connection to Storaâs facilities there? Stora was/is developing a lignin derivative presented under the Lignode brand name, which seems to be a promising alternative for the anode of sodium-based batteries, but the âdonut batteryâsâ electrolyte also seems to be some kind of carbon mixture. Apparently, carbon is an important raw material even if the new battery type were a kind of supercapacitor, although at least to me, itâs very unclear whether the battery would then have, for example, an anode similar to current batteries as the second electrode.
1 Like
Thereâs quite a buzz around the world about this battery.
2 Likes
Getting some Intellego vibes from how this is being investigated online.
Go take a look at the photos in the Nordnet Springvest discussion (edit: or more easily in the next message).
In that Electric Duo video [5:50], LehtimÀki says:
We are now already in gigawatt-hour capacity [âŠ]
And where is the manufacturing taking place?
Currently the factory is in Finland
Granted, he doesnât mention Imatra, but from other contexts, one gets the impression that this former grocery store specifically would be the place where Nordic Nano manufactures battery cells. It really doesnât look like production is already currently running there at a GWh level.
Edit: If production exists, itâs likely elsewhere. I find it hard to believe that you could just drive into the yard and look through the windows if mass production of battery modules were happening in the building in the photos. And youâd probably see people and cars too.
Edit: In Hesari, the CEO of Nordic Nano Group says this about the Imatra factory:
The factory aims to start pre-series production this month or next month at the latest. According to Parjanen, larger capacity production will begin to emerge in the summer.
9 Likes
I saw the same thing. I also understood that these batteries would be manufactured specifically at those premises in Imatra, where production lines were supposed to be installed. This hasnât actually been stated directly anywhere, but there doesnât seem to be any other publicly known production site.
Here are the photos posted by Shareville user JussiPoika79. I wonât take a stand myself on whether these photos are evidence of anything. If one were to note something about the evidentiary value of these images, itâs that they donât show the inside of the building at all.
Those premises previously housed Laplandia Market, which was largely a store intended for Russian tourists.
3 Likes
Skeleton Technologies also operates a supercapacitor factory in Varkaus, but the specs donât match and there are no indications of collaboration.
My guess at this point is that the battery (or cap) is real (i.e., not vaporware), but the specs are based on preliminary measurements and therefore look too good. On top of that, some essential weaknesses have not been disclosed.
Furthermore, production is certainly not running on any significant scale. Even the pilot line might not even be running yet!
Then regarding the ownership stakes in Sprinvest, itâs somehow hard to see that more money wouldnât have been raised for Donut Lab and/or Nordic Nano after 6/2025. Therefore, I think the ownership stake is <0.6%.
5 Likes
Is the assumption here now that this is a scam and a witch-hunt is underway?
Siilasmaa would hardly be involved in something like that? In principle, one has to believe it because if they are lying, then thatâs the end of everything.
EV Battery Breakthrough! Donut Lab Solid-State Battery & CEO interview!
Isnât the product right here?
2 Likes
Siilasmaa is an investor and almost certainly isnât very involved in the day-to-day operations. No matter how well-known or successful an investor may be, you shouldnât put too many chips / place too much trust in the idea that âXYZ is involved, so it canât be a scam.â
Itâs a different matter if they are involved in operations; a board seat might provide some level of confidence, but board members have certainly been thoroughly scammed before.
I wonât comment on the product in question, but I personally donât like that âXYZ is involved, it canât be a scamâ mentality at all.
15 Likes
That is what I believe those images are implying.
I watched the interview you linked yesterday. In it, they show the Verge bike and the Esox drone, which allegedly contain Donut Labâs solid-state battery. Verge bikes have been out in the world for several years with quite traditional batteries. As far as I understand, neither of those products has been seen in operation with the new battery, and no conclusions can be drawn one way or the other from that trade show presentation. According to the CEO, bikes equipped with the new battery will soon be available for test rides by the industry media, so we will likely get more information shortly.
I have a very limited ability to evaluate the performance of this battery technology, so I wonât take a stand on it; instead, Iâm following with interest from the sidelines. I certainly hope that this product is real, but at least battery experts globally have already declared it a fake. Of course, they have their own incentives to say so, as they represent traditional battery technology themselves.
Users @jjige and @Mzazz had good points. Something essential regarding the technologyâs usability and performance might have been left unsaid at this stage. Money is splashed around into these startups left and right, and this could very well be just one âticketâ in Siilasmaaâs portfolio. I agree that the involvement of well-known individuals is not necessarily a good basis for forming oneâs own opinion.
I was also considering the possibility that, now that theyâve successfully gained massive global visibility within industry circles, could the intention be to woo investors from abroad as well? Vergeâs operations have been wildly unprofitable, and there is certainly a need for cash.
1 Like
In my opinion, itâs about the fact that this small startup of about 10 people, founded a few years ago, has done (or claims to have done) what billion-dollar companies havenât been able to achieve in over ten years with massive funding and resources. Thatâs where this skepticism comes from; it is significantly more likely that Donutâs claims are false than true.
Could it be, however, that things are going so poorly that theyâre forced to do something radical just to sell a few motorcycles and get the attention needed to secure further funding? Hopefully, thatâs not the case!
8 Likes