Career Thread - To the Moon with Your Career?

[Kulumarauta]

Starting this thread has been on my mind for a while, as to my surprise, it’s not yet found on the forum. There’s already a salary thread here, but to my taste, the discussion in that thread revolves around numbers, even though occasionally someone opens up the story behind the numbers.

Almost all of us forum members surely aim to some extent to grow our wealth. Education and career choices play a huge role in increasing lifetime income and wealth, but to my taste, in discussions focused on personal finance, it’s not given enough weight. Savings tips are interesting, and coffee offers at the local grocery store are eyed, even though one’s financial situation could be improved more long-term and effectively with a single career move.

I myself am just at the beginning of my career and I think a lot about my own choices. @Omavaraisuushaaste’s writings have helped me a lot, a big thank you for them! I now challenge forum members who have advanced in their careers to tell your story! What schools did you attend, where are you now, where did you start, what has happened along the way, and would you do anything differently? Did you happen to get incredibly lucky at some point, or did your own cleverness open doors to a dream job that paved the way to top positions in working life? What jobs are you eyeing next? What do you think are the keys to career success?

In this thread, you can and should ask if something related to your career is on your mind. The forum’s juniors can even ask the more experienced how they should act in their own situation to achieve their goals.

Let’s continue to put matters related solely to salary in the salary thread. Career and salary development go hand in hand, so you can certainly state your current salary here amidst stories and discussion.

With these words, I hope we can learn from each other in this thread!

[LVNGinvestments]

Thanks for starting this, an interesting topic for me too, and one I’ve thought a lot about during my career. I’m currently on the verge of middle age, so I’ve already come a long way, but equally, there’s a lot left to go I might tell my own story in more detail sometime when I have more time, but at this point, a few highlights from my career.

• Going on an exchange during studies. This almost opened doors to an international career for me back when I was still studying, but it also looked good on my CV later regarding studies and an international internship. And it certainly influenced future job placements, but especially gave me experience and self-confidence in my own abilities/succeeding in any situation.
• Change boldly. I was lucky enough at one point that a colleague tipped me off about a certain position that I certainly wouldn’t have known to look for myself at the time. I had about 5 years of work experience after my studies and about 3 years with my then-employer when I applied for another position, for which I was then hired. This change has proven to be a very significant career move, as it allowed me to learn within a large international company and I grew tremendously within the company. My salary development also took a big upward turn due to this career move.

Conversely, what regrets me at this stage of my career is that I haven’t really planned my career for the long term. I’ve made my career moves mostly according to my current situation, and haven’t really thought 5-10 years ahead about what skills I would gain from this position and where it would take me. On the other hand, I am a completely different person now than I was 5-10 years ago, and my career goals have also changed a lot. So that kind of thinking might have been insignificant for me, but on the other hand, it might have made me understand my future goals earlier.

My education is in Industrial Engineering and I have an MBA, but if I were to choose again now, I would opt for vocational training, through which I would start growing as an entrepreneur. And it’s never too late, so it’s currently strongly under consideration; either starting my own business or developing something already existing. (So feel free to contact me about these possibilities )

Finally, to your question “What do you think are the keys to career success?”

• Ask and question. In business life, you will see a lot of people assuming things without deeper analysis or delving into them, which only leads to poor results. By asking “Why?”, “Based on what?” etc., you gain much more information and learn than by assuming. So always remember to ask. At one point, the best supervisor of my career so far said during my internship, “Make as many mistakes as possible, because you learn best and fastest from all of them.” The mistakes ended up being quite few, but they gave me a lot of faith in my own work and confidence that mistakes are not punished, but learned from together.

[Torniojaws]

For me, it’s easy because my career path was clear already in elementary school I went to school in Sweden, where the financial situation of schools was on a completely different level compared to Finland at that time (early 90s). Concretely, this was evident in every classroom having a desktop computer available for free use, and I certainly made good use of it. MS-DOS with its commands became very familiar, so I could run Gorillas, Ski or Diet, Skyroads, and others Then, in 1994 or 1995, the school got a T1 internet connection (1.5 Mbit!), which at that time was like having something like a 12.5 gigabit internet connection today. And then in 1997, we got about 15 (thick) laptops per class (class size was around 10 at that point…), also for free use. We also had coding lessons for everyone, with QBasic as the language.

I started high school, but then I heard from a friend that IT could also be studied properly. Discussions with the guidance counselor and then straight to vocational school for a data processing qualification (datanomi) in 2002, to learn more about installing servers, assembling computers from components, and surprisingly a lot of coding (C, Visual Studio .NET, Delphi, ASP.NET), and also several accounting courses and business courses as part of the education, touching upon investing. Although data processing specialists (datanomi) are often criticized, I found that to be a very high-quality and comprehensive education - perhaps there are regional differences? But it was clear, however, that a mere data processing qualification (datanomi) wouldn’t be enough for me

In between, I already used my skills for small-scale web development for money, for local organizations and small businesses. That was good practical training too, even though the compensation for it was mainly in the range of expense reimbursement The more important part was honing my skills in real projects.

After the army, it was time to go to a university of applied sciences in 2006, to get an IT engineer’s degree. There, the choice was practically “hardware for Nokia” or “mobile software for Nokia” Well, not really, but Nokia’s “stamp” was very clearly visible in the themes of the specialization courses. I chose the software side as my specialization, where we then coded with C, MatLab, Java, PHP, C#, and did SQL, physical electrical circuit connections, and embedded systems for AVR microcontrollers, especially ATmega128, less surprisingly. And we read microcontroller documentation day after day - good training for reading quarterly reports on the investment side

And in my free time, of course, a hell of a lot of coding, especially for the web At this point, I already had my degree in my pocket in 2010, and it was time to start earning money with it.

My first job was then found far away in Southern Finland, where I did consulting work for 5 years starting in 2011, and in line with the school theme, the language selection was already comprehensive at this point, as my first position involved using Java EE, C#, HTML, CSS, SQL, and Rational’s toolset. And in addition, in my second position, I got to do work for the state (too), at a Unix level! Shell scripts and commands became very familiar there And the second part involved B2B messages using EDIFACT, SAP IDOCs, and XML. Alongside that, I also became familiar with companies’ ordering and invoicing practices, as we investigated errors in data, even in connection with Finland’s largest companies.

Well, everything in its time, and the desire to do something new took over, so my first job change was from a large consulting firm to what was then still a startup, now a publicly listed company (which seems quite popular here). There, the first task was to assemble Ikea office desks as a team! Then laptops on the table and to work Here, I got to implement Python, which I had studied in my own time, at a practical level. A successful investment earlier! Python became one of my favorite languages, even after long-term professional use. We then did projects extending to Germany, where we made several longer trips. At the same time, we also started developing our own auxiliary tools, and then I researched what would be an excellent choice for a frontend tool. Ultimately, React became the choice, which at that time (~2017) was not yet the giant it is today. But the steps were clear even then, and I’m not surprised by its current popularity

Then megalomania struck, and in late 2017, I decided to test my mettle in one of Finland’s probably most technically demanding companies. And it was exactly that! I got to learn an enormous amount of new things every single day, which was a real goldmine for the future. The main tools were AWS, Node, and the familiar Python. From there, my own enthusiasm for Node and later TypeScript took off, and they are still my favorite languages, where everything is in a good balance - not too bureaucratic, but not too wild west, and at the same time, there’s enough power. And work, in the big picture. However, eventually, I started to be drawn more towards full-stack, instead of pure backend.

So, nothing else but a new startup in sight in 2019! This time, I got to dabble with blood . Literally. The company’s business is blood analysis, and my part was to develop the ordering system and the analysis tool itself, which the company’s doctors (literally!) then used in their analysis work. In line with the theme, new languages (well, fortunately not literally anymore ) were added to the toolset, with Go and Angular as the stack, in addition to the already familiar PHP and React. However, the most important lesson came from AWS and Docker, both of which were then key in my next job.

Actually, the only reason for changing jobs in the autumn of the same year, 2019, was that I got my dream job, and the position was in the sexiest thing of all - user interfaces in airplanes! Besides the ones you might already be familiar with, there are also loooots of others. Here, I got to travel around the world for work, and California became familiar Since we were tinkering with “all” systems, the toolset was accordingly: Qt QML, JavaScript, Node, AWS, Docker, Jenkins, Linux, TypeScript, Serverless, SQL, SQLite, React, WebSocket, XML, JSON, and I probably even forget something Easy as pie. But we got it finished and a Red Dot in our pocket. Then, making more tools, and the stack didn’t shrink much at all, and work continues even after all the world’s crises…

So, what can be learned from this novella? Well, at least I’d say it’s not worth getting too stuck in one or two technologies if you want to experience all sorts of things in your career And as for career development, it’s a stark truth that salary develops best by changing jobs at appropriate intervals. Perhaps every 2-3 years, until the salary starts to be sufficient. What that is, of course, depends on you and the industry.

[Indeksoija]

Just under 10 years into my career, the first years of which I spent in strategy consulting and the latter in a large multinational corporation. This is the first year my gross earnings are projected to exceed 200k, so a relatively good position has been achieved compared to Finnish salary levels.

Enabling factors if you want a low-risk but well-paying corporate career (note: includes unpleasantly realistic organizational politics ):

• Technical / commercial education: M.Sc. (Tech)/M.Sc. (Econ.) from a desired and competitive field
• High-paying job right out of school: for example, the salary level in strategy consulting is in a completely different league compared to large corporations (a difference of several thousand euros/month - already a couple of years ago, the market was seeing base salaries of up to 6.5k straight out of school, nowadays 6k+ is probably a widespread norm?). I emphasize to promising, hungry students, including interns at my current workplace, not to come work here in a corporation, but to go into consulting first, because otherwise you won’t get money in a corporation. It seems that all corporations have ridiculously small salary increase budgets and restrictions on promotions. However, when coming from outside, you can ask for almost anything, and things are negotiable. Advancing internally as a junior requires either an exceptional company (I can’t point to any) or a very good supervisor with the political power to push through promotions and salary increases past restrictions (impossible to know in advance).
• Exit from consulting early enough: 1-2 promotions show that you get things done and are not afraid of work. After this, the quality of exits, in my experience, doesn’t improve much, and there are generally fewer positions (manager positions are usually abundant and frequent in the market, director/VP positions are few). A higher probability of reaching director level or above is likely from within the company rather than from outside professional services fields (there can, of course, be differing views on this).
• Maintain quality standards: many seem to drop their gloves when there’s no longer the same competition around. However, this is clearly visible upwards and limits promotion opportunities. So, don’t drop your gloves
• Deliver to those who matter and who give credit for your work: in a corporation, it’s worth remembering that work doesn’t speak for itself if decision-makers don’t know who the work came from. If you can’t present your own work, make sure the original author of the work is known. If someone doesn’t give credit for work they requested (e.g., presents it as their own upwards) or doesn’t decide on your salary increases or advancement, don’t deliver, or at least don’t deliver quickly. A 1-2 week lead time estimate can be okay (emphasize how urgent it is) and usually gets such non-important things off your plate. The danger is that you’ll otherwise do a lot of work, but someone else will advance in your place.
• Deliver beyond expectations: when asked if something can be done, say yes and get the job done. This includes high quality, fast delivery time (at least what was promised), no errors (+ figures/facts don’t fluctuate), etc. The last point is very important in any somewhat larger company if you want to build a career, but it seems to be a rare commodity. Also, don’t inherently trust others’ figures and analyses; instead, try to ensure their correctness at least at a high level before using them as a source. Also applies to stock picking
• Always respond to your boss and management team members: if management doesn’t respect office hours or if there are large time differences in the organization, it’s advisable to be adaptable (at least to a certain extent). For example, Teams messages on your phone are easy ways to manage expectations upwards, without having to sit at your computer in the evenings or on weekends. If this feels insurmountable, I cannot recommend multinational companies.

If you know your stuff, deliver well, are not naive about organizational politics, are not idealistic about working hours, and manage upwards effectively, you can achieve good earnings in a large company with a reasonable workload, e.g., 40-45 hours per week. If you don’t manage your domain well, you might end up working 50-60 hours per week without accomplishing more, so how your career unfolds largely depends on you. In a large corporation, work never ends, and more is always pushed onto the plates of good performers. So, it’s worth protecting your own time and using it where it benefits you (whether that’s career advancement or free time).

[Emilio]

@Indeksoija

Don’t come to work for this corporation, but consult first

Certainly, from an earning perspective, that’s true, but for the credibility and quality of consulting work, the order should be precisely the opposite. I’ve done quite a lot of work with consultants, and it’s always a bit amusing to see those who have become consultants straight out of school. How can one be a credible consultant if they haven’t done real work themselves in the industry they’re consulting for😀of course, perhaps some strategy consulting could be an exception.

[Hesulinbullero]

An interesting thread, and a couple of great stories already shared. Here’s mine. The first part was quite a miserable struggle, but nowadays I’m quite happy with my life and career.

I started working at 13 in a summer job. I was lucky because work was easy to find at my father’s company. I mostly did warehouse tasks, packed goods into a van for installers’ trips, and sometimes got to be an assistant on site. I worked every summer, which meant I had more money than others my age. I bought a PlayStation and a computer, among other things, and the rest of the money went into RAY’s gambling games (this was one of the first mistakes I made). The pay was small, of course, but perfectly acceptable.

I wasn’t aware of investing at all in the early years, but when I was about 15, the bank contacted me and suggested I put money into their balanced fund to grow. So, I put 5,000 € there to grow towards a million with a “modest” 3% management fee.

In my youth, I was a follower without my own opinions or thoughts. After junior high, I went to upper secondary school because my friends did too, and thanks to my mathematical skills, I got through without doing almost anything. My attitude towards schooling was very poor, which fortunately improved later. During upper secondary school, I was still working summer jobs, and my salary slowly increased with index adjustments, but I bought a car, and all my money went into that. That was a big mistake too.

After upper secondary school, I got into university to study mathematics based on my grades. After a wasted gap year (I was in the army for only 5 days when a doctor determined they couldn’t let me stay with such a bad back; I spent the rest of the year lying on the couch eating pizza and drinking beer), I moved to a new city without acquaintances or a support network. It’s probably no surprise that I wasn’t ready for independent life, and after the first year, I returned home to my mother for the summer and dropped out of my studies. And that 5,000 € hadn’t grown to a million; it had actually shrunk by a couple of thousand when I sold it and used the money for food and bills (of course, I sold it in the middle of the financial crisis, at the worst possible time). I decided I didn’t have money for investing. Another mistake.

At this point, I was about 20 years old and finally decided to get my act together, form my own opinions, and enjoy life. I moved to Tampere, got a job as a fiber optic welder, and often worked 16-hour days, but that only lasted a few years until the employer went bankrupt. No matter, I moved to Turku for love and started studying at a university of applied sciences (electronics) in 2013. At this stage, I started to have a better attitude towards what I was doing; I was the best in my year and also took all the extra courses in computer science. From the first summer onwards, I worked alongside my studies, and both of my children were born during those four years.

So, in 2014, I went for a summer job at a publicly traded company’s factory, in final assembly, and my hourly wage was 12 € (just under 2000 €/month). The following year, I applied to the engineering department and got in, making work instructions for production, with a monthly salary of 2100 €. They asked if I could code with LabVIEW, but I didn’t have that skill; I had studied hardware (HW) and barely knew the basics of C language. However, I decided to seize the opportunity and requested a LabVIEW license. During the summer, I learned to code using YouTube, and in the autumn, I started getting related work assignments.

For the next couple of years, I improved my coding skills and didn’t do any hardware (HW) work. My salary was eventually 2500 €/month after graduating in 2017. I wasn’t satisfied with that, so that same autumn, I started radio engineering studies at Aalto. I worked full-time and studied in the evenings. Once every two weeks, I traveled to Espoo for in-person classes. Then co-operation negotiations (YT) began, and I decided to leave. Our whole family moved to Espoo in January 2018, and I became a full-time student.

That didn’t last long; I went to work as an RF designer at a medical technology company, with a salary of around 2500 €/month. The work was quite nice, but the closure of the Finnish office was clearly visible. Additionally, I started drifting back into coding, which I didn’t want.

I still had my Master’s thesis ahead of me, so by chance, I found a new place and changed jobs once more, starting with my current employer in January 2019. Nowadays, I am a hardware (HW) designer; I’ve never had supervisory responsibility, nor do I want it currently. My monthly salary has increased nicely, and with the reward system, my annual income is over 100 k€, so I am quite satisfied. My career and skills are developing in the direction I want, I have my own house (largely owned by the bank) in Lohja and a family. Headhunters and former colleagues + bosses ask if I’d like to change jobs, and so far, I haven’t wanted to. I finally restarted investing after that first disappointment.

That was a bit more than just career development, but for my part, I consider it all essential. I’ve always enjoyed working, but I’ve only managed money well in recent years. Fortunately, I’ve always had a good aptitude for mathematical subjects, which is why I didn’t fail upper secondary school. For a large part of the time, I’ve worked and studied simultaneously, yet still managed to spend time with my family. I need little sleep, so I often worked when others were sleeping.

I want to highlight a few important points for me that have helped both in my career and in life in general:

• If you are not satisfied with something, actively try to change it and don’t be afraid of changes: Change jobs if you’re not happy. Move to another city if you want a better environment for your children. Ask for a higher salary if it feels too low, but also be able to justify your value. People seem to be afraid of changes; for my own life, it has freed me from worries. This applies to both big and small things.
• Study with the right attitude: This is very regrettable. I wish I had found the right attitude and motivation already in junior high. I believe it would have enabled much more, for example, regarding language skills.
• Work with the right attitude and show your competence: @Indeksoija had already made good points about this. I personally feel that this is much easier in a small workplace than in a huge corporation, where I always felt invisible outside my own department.
• Know your market value: There are different ways to do this; the easiest is to change jobs/be involved in the recruitment process. It’s also worth talking openly about salaries with people, even though it seems to be a taboo for many. In contrast, recommended salaries from unions are nonsense that should be forgotten. You should be paid according to your skills and contribution, not some piece of paper from school that everyone gets automatically even if they don’t put in any effort. Also, note that long work experience does not guarantee better skills, although there is, of course, a correlation.

I guess I haven’t reached the moon yet, but I like the direction my life is going. I got help when I was young by getting a summer job at my father’s company. However, I personally destroyed the benefit I gained from it, after which everything has been built together with my spouse by investing time and effort. The biggest thing seems to be that nowadays I have the courage to seize an opportunity when it arises, even if it means a leap into the unknown. Additionally, it’s worth ending up in a job you enjoy. After all, you spend 8 hours a day there. So, not in the public sector