Yes, exactly! If facts are not brought to light about what is better in a competitor’s product, then how can an investor compare which product is better and which will last longer with quality? In the end, product quality determines success in the long run.
A dozen things come and go; surely it can’t be a bad thing if another’s structure is fundamentally better designed and built to last, and this is a bad thing, deviates from the topic, and gets flagged.
Well, you can talk whatever crap you want, but if a matter is justified with facts and it gets flagged, then the forum has indeed gone in a bad direction, what a shame.
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If you happened to be the one flagging messages, then in my opinion, your enthusiasm for flagging has gone too far. In your time, you were, for example, strongly demanding the deletion of all news regarding the company’s abuses in the OmaSP thread.
The flagging practice is a good thing on the one hand, but on the other hand, using OmaSP as an example, it’s quite a bad practice when the company’s “fans” can water down essential information dissemination with their flags.
I agree. And if that’s not relevant company discussion, then what is? The future competitiveness of a company is, at least in my opinion, perhaps the most important topic of discussion when talking about publicly listed companies. And competitiveness arises, for example, precisely from quality differences compared to competitors.
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It would be nice if you could put the flagged message in this thread as a reference, so it would be easier to discuss whether the message was appropriate or not.
From an outsider’s perspective, that VW thread still looks so quiet and like a small-circle thread that there’s probably no genuine need to flag messages there, even if they go into nitty-gritty details. In a mass thread like Kesko, on the other hand, there’s sometimes so much idle chatter that all sensible discussion gets lost in the noise. Sometimes a reflection and anecdote related to a single store becomes part of a larger discussion, so they shouldn’t be categorically flagged. Sometimes by observing details, valuable conclusions can be drawn about broader entities.
Threads develop different cultures over time, so flagging criteria cannot be transferred 1:1 from one thread to another anyway. I would be quite cautious about flagging users who are willing to research companies at a ball-bearing level and share these findings with others, even if the investment decision ultimately needs to be made regarding a larger entity.
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"Good point, there’s apparently a long discussion about this in the comment section of the same video. It completely went over my head, at least. What I understood from the video itself is that this ball bearing solution is used in at least the Plaid and Cybertruck.
But at least on Munro’s Youtube channel, VAG is now getting praise. This hasn’t always been the case."
This and a few other messages in addition to this were flagged
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This was about this ingenious invention and it certainly stands comparison to anything; it has been developed to be better in all technical aspects than the competitor’s equivalent.
A ball bearing is not bad in a place where there are only radial forces and high rotational speed; it is the best solution for that. However, if it is also subjected to axial load, a single-row ball bearing will not work in the long run because it cannot withstand axial load (due to its structure). Teslas’ power units are built with these ball bearings, whereas VW’s APP550 power unit is built with tapered roller bearings, which can withstand both axial and radial loads. Axial load also comes from the structure of the gears, i.e., a “helical type” gear system also causes some thrust that a ball bearing cannot tolerate. Also, in terms of lubrication, the APP550 is better because it does not have a separate oil pump (one more wearing (breaking) part); the function of the oil pump is ingeniously handled by a combination of splash lubrication and an “oil pump” as seen in the video, and the cooling is also implemented significantly smarter. The APP550 is designed and made with high quality, which one would expect, but why the hell can’t these things be made public? It’s peculiar that Tesla fans cannot change their stance even when facts are presented. Well, it will eventually come back to bite them when the hype ends and the truth becomes clear.
These things also explain the margins of Tesla cars; a car is made cheaply, and its superiority is tried to be convinced by all means, but the truth always comes out sooner or later, and the longer it takes, the harder it hits in the face.
And then there was also talk about torsional vibration, which doesn’t seem to be understood as a real problem for every manufacturer. Some handle it one way, and others don’t even care (perhaps), and it shows in the long run as broken parts, e.g., bearings. A ball bearing withstands this torsional vibration significantly worse than a tapered roller bearing or a roller bearing. There is a big difference whether the powertrain is built with roller or ball bearings (ball bearings are cheap). To some extent, with a small load, a ball bearing is better because of lower rolling resistance, but when there is a greater load, especially vibration, the point-like loading of a ball bearing can break the sliding surface (each ball contact without a lubricating film damages the bearing’s sliding surface or the ball) even in the radial direction, and in the axial direction, the structure of a ball bearing does not even allow it to receive load and breaks the sliding surface, the ball, or the cage that separates the balls, and it starts to make noise. One advantage of a roller bearing is that point load does not occur as much on the bearing race, and a tapered roller bearing can take both loads (axially and radially) due to its structure, and it is much more commonly used in power transmission.
These are not the only loads that affect the powertrain, but from experience, I can say that Tesla’s ball bearing solution is not good in the long run. Under heavy stress and aggressive driving style (many maximum accelerations from a standstill), the damage to ball bearings accelerates for the aforementioned reasons, creating point loads, and the bearing temperature can also rise, and the lubricating ability of the oil film on the bearing’s sliding surface weakens, and damage begins to occur. The damage is not immediately audible but develops gradually. When, on the other hand, with roller and tapered roller bearings, it does not matter how and in what situation it is loaded, it withstands the designed load and a little over. You cannot call a German engineer stupid.
These were the things that were flagged as “Your message was marked as off-topic: it is felt that it does not belong to the topic of the thread, which is defined by its starting post and title.” This was not really a justified message removal, or can you tell a fool how this deviates from the topic in a Volkswagen discussion where the car’s competitive advantage vs. another is specifically discussed?
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I don’t understand at all why this message was deleted. Perhaps in the future, it’s not worth delving into where a company’s core competence and competitiveness come from. It’s quite rare on this discussion forum to see such high-level analysis that covers issues related to a company’s engineering skills. Perhaps the party who decided to remove the message could explain a bit more precisely why this message was removed and what kind of messages should be posted here in the future.
I wish all the best for this forum. However, for example, the Tesla forum is already suffering from the fact that various figures about car deliveries and delivery schedules are copy-pasted there without context. This has no informational value because the data is already available elsewhere, and the only thing achieved is a boring ad hominem ‘is not-is too’ debate. There is far too little in-depth analysis that examines a company’s core competence, and it’s depressing that when someone tries to do it, the whole thing falls victim to censorship. It seems that discussions about the competitive advantages of VAG and Tesla relative to each other should not be held on this forum.
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Yes, in my opinion too, detailed and factual messages belong on the forum. The writer has spent time digging into the details and writing about them. Especially if the thread is already quite quiet and doesn’t suffer from an information overload.
More generally about the need for moderation. From the Tesla thread, one could (in my opinion) moderate messages where some of the content is bickering/sniping/exaggeration between users. The forum has private messages where users can debate among themselves if they consider it worth their time. In my opinion, contentiously worded writing provokes more of the same level of posting and does not promote the forum’s culture.
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Could @Verneri_Pulkkinen @Johannes_Sippola @Sijoittaja-alokas take a look and comment on what happened here? Surely messages like these can’t be deleted?
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It would also be quite welcome if the flagging rights of users who clearly resort to unnecessary flagging were restricted. At the same time, it would be worth considering whether users who have recently served a forum ban should have the ability to flag messages.
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Hi!
I restored almost all messages, at least the ones mentioned. I also made visible some that perhaps should have remained hidden or deleted, but for clarity, I left those as well. 
There wasn’t a message like that, at least not in that exact form.
A few were deleted a bit too eagerly, apologies for those!
In the thread’s history, a 3-digit number of messages have been deleted from that thread, most of them on topic, but now several messages were deleted a bit too eagerly.
Good and constructive discussion… good feedback and points, thanks for those too 
Learned something new again, have a nice rest of the day!
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Thanks for the quick response. Indeed, sometimes these discussions delve deep into product details, but at the same time, they also explore the fundamental aspects that drive a product’s and company’s competitiveness.
When I invested in Tesla, I watched and listened to dozens of Sandy Munro’s videos, which detailed Tesla and its manufacturing technology. My investment thesis was largely based on the information I gained from these videos. If domestic versions of Sandy Munro appear on this forum in the future, please try to view the matter from the perspective that everything ultimately relies on technology and manufacturing techniques, including the bottom line of the income statement.
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For my part, I can say that writing skills are not my strongest suit, but my knowledge of cars and the car repair industry is reasonably good. I’ve been an entrepreneur for about 20 years, plus worked elsewhere in the automotive industry, and have continuously educated myself. In the car repair industry, it’s essential to train regularly to keep up with new technology, and furthermore, when one is deeply interested in vehicle technology, self-study happens constantly. And perhaps most importantly, as the old saying goes, one learns by doing.
I apologize if anyone is offended by the facts or my writing style. I never claim anything unless it’s based on truth, and I always need to be able to justify things, no matter what the issue or when, always explaining why it is so. If one cannot be honest or justify things, it’s not worth dealing with me at all; honesty is one of my most important values.
I did my first cylinder head overhaul for someone else when I was about 11 years old; I don’t remember the exact age. The only thing I needed help with for that job was when the cylinder head had to be torqued, and a little guy just didn’t have enough strength. In the old rear-engine T3 VW Transporter, it had stretch head bolts, which are first tightened to a certain torque and then in degrees, e.g., 2x 90 degrees, so you really have to use force to get them tightened correctly. My enthusiasm for technical devices and cars has been quite strong my whole life, and if something isn’t clear, I investigate it until it is clear, but I never give up. 
Let’s try to stick to the point and generally be civil. The world is a much better place when people are in harmony, even if they disagree on something. If one asks fairly and respectfully about a matter that troubles the mind, one will likely receive a respectful answer; if one snaps and barks, the answer will also be similar.
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I, for one, learned a lot from your writings and found them very instructive and unusually interesting. That’s why it was an even greater shock when they became the subject of flagging. I hope you continue to comment in the future!
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Business as usual in the Tesla thread. I don’t think there’s a single other thread on the Inderes forum that is as hostile to messages containing any criticism of the thread’s company.
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Well, I don’t know, I don’t think there’s anything to flag there right now, or the messages have already been removed. It’s normal discussion, though perhaps not particularly profound.
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Thank you @Hawkmountdiver the intention is for others to also understand the technology and differences between other brands. I try to explain it in the most understandable way possible, as it can sometimes be difficult to grasp professional jargon and technical terminology. I don’t mind if someone doesn’t like what I write in the Volkkari (VW) thread, but of course, one must remain factual and stick to facts, and not intentionally mislead, just like anywhere else.
Have a good weekend everyone!
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In December, I received a 2-month ban from Inderes for exercising freedom of speech, and my account was closed.
Who decided to close my account - is the iron matter in order?
Outrageous, in my opinion.
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“Well, that couldn’t have come as a surprise, could it? Territorial cessions were certain, why would Russia retreat when it’s winning and Ukraine has no chance of reclaiming the territories? Crimea has been under Russia for a long time, so there’s nothing new about that in particular.”
Why is this message constantly being deleted?
I don’t know, but if you keep spamming a message that’s been deleted onto the forum again and again, that’s pretty “odd” behavior.
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No, it isn’t, because the message has been modified by removing a sentence from the end as a precaution, which could even remotely be a reason for its deletion.
Now I want to know what is still wrong with that message?