Nitpicking, Proofreading, and Spelling Thread

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I am worried about the future of the Finnish language, and I’m not alone, which is a great thing. I often use language in an unruly way because I can’t bear to stick to sentences at the level of the dog barks outside or the ball is red. However, my ability to add movement to the ball or adjectives to the dog already starts to push the boundaries of correct writing; I’m already in trouble with semicolons, just like everyone else.

A good self-help method is to read and listen to what language is. According to Wittgenstein, the mixing of language games is a major reason for problems among people and with language. This is a nice summary of the topic:

https://youtu.be/zaUvtlDDPIY?si=Tw9qdKJ_iTIWXsxm

Another amusing work that touches upon this is Ezra Pound’s ABC of Reading:

s-l1200

What’s funny about it is that, in a podcast timeframe, an insufferable old man rambles incoherently and, by modern standards, unreadably, about how language is a central part of thought, the understanding of which is a terrible chore.

The book, of course, contains timeless gems such as Literature is news that stays news.

A slight apology that this now slips into the language maintenance discussion. But I think it’s good, when considering whether to use the pair binary/non-binary or bipolar, single-division, two-part/complex, gender-diverse, complicated… to keep in mind that ultimately, what’s most essential is who is speaking and to whom.

Nitpicking, or even a more passionate treatment of language, is its own game, and don’t get me wrong, it’s much more entertaining than Tennis or Roller Derby. This is not a criticism of it, and it is always both a joy and educational (at this point, the Finnish language sets limits compared to ‘pedagogical’) to read. :blush: or :slightly_smiling_face: (whichever, when used in modern language, is not sarcastic to the reader)

Edit. The beginning of the text has been corrected thanks to @vellux’s keen-eyed guidance.

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“one is regularly worried,” I just read. That is, “worried” with a possessive suffix. A possessive suffix is like a pronoun, so it always has a correlative to which it refers. Now, when “ollaan” is used, it’s in the passive voice, meaning there’s no subject, i.e., no agent, to which the possessive suffix would refer. Therefore, one should say “ollaan huolestuneita” (one is worried), or use the active voice, e.g., “olen huolissani” (I am worried), “olet huolissasi” (you are worried), etc.

Of course, it’s quite nitpicking if every distortion of common language is addressed, but since there’s a thread for it here, why not. It is, of course, clear that clear, unambiguous communication is a value in itself, especially when discussing texts related to, for instance, commerce.

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Let’s refine this further, in line with the thread’s theme, as there are also expressions where the suffix has become lexicalized as part of the word and is not reflexive in meaning:

Usually, a possessive suffix cannot refer to the person ‘someone’ of a passive verb form (such as syödään ‘is eaten’). Therefore, sentences like “Huoneessa syödään eväitään” (‘In the room, one eats their snacks’) are not clear. However, in expressions describing a state of being, such as huolissaan (‘worried’), pahoillaan (‘sorry’)-type expressions, the possessive suffix is possible even in passive sentences:

The host said that in the municipalities, people are in fear. (~ The host said that in the municipalities, people are afraid.)

People were confused and very sorry about the matter. ~ People were confused about the matter and it was regretted.

At customs, people are worried about the increased online ordering of medicines. ~ At customs, people are concerned. ~ Customs is worried.

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Let’s dissect more in the spirit of the thread.

Thanks also to @HER_ARM for the clarification regarding my previous passive.

E. Here, Wittgenstein’s point was indeed nicely and conveniently concretized.

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Greetings from the Language Police, @Sauli_Vilen :man_police_officer:

I listened to a good Sampopod and noticed the incorrect use of the word sivuuttaa, which I’ve heard before. To sivuuttaa something means to bypass it or disregard it (“the minister sivuutti the question about corruption allegations”). Whereas to sivuta something means that the matter is dealt with in passing but not in detail (“the opinion piece sivusi also the problems of the general plan”).

Sivuta: Kielitoimiston sanakirja

Sivuuttaa: Kielitoimiston sanakirja

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Surely Sauli knows the difference in meaning between the verbs sivuuttaa and sivuta.

When you’re working, things get messy. A familiar thing for everyone who does public speaking.

As a language police, I would be much stricter if the same mistake were (repeatedly) encountered in written language.

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In my opinion, a quote in the middle of a sentence is not a complete sentence. So, one can start with a lowercase letter.

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I’m reminding you again about a grammatical detail, an incorrect form that some writers tend to stick with.

If the intention is to say that something would be done (tehtäisiin), some write it in the form that something “tehtäisi”, and that is unequivocally wrong, and in some places even a bit confusing. (This form applies to other verbs as well.)

Colloquial language might influence this (tehtäis vs. ei tehtäis), but in standard language, one says that the matter would be done (tehtäisiin). The negative form is “ei tehtäisi”.

For some professional writers who otherwise produce very fluent text, this error stands out, and I would hope, for example, that Sauli Vilén reads this, as in the eQ-thread recently he has written like this:

“I still don’t understand why Aktia’s wealth management head would be changed (vaihdettaisi) (and a new one would be started (lähdettäisi) to recruit), if some arrangement were around the corner?”

“As you can see from the table, if the funds were sold (myytäisi) now, the performance fee would be a fraction of that predicted.”

However, grammatically correct, this would be:

“I still don’t understand why Aktia’s wealth management head would be changedin (vaihdettaisiin) (and a new one would be startedin (lähdettäisiin) to recruit), if some arrangement were around the corner?”

“As you can see from the table, if the funds were soldin (myytäisiin) now, the performance fee would be a fraction of that predicted.”

This is a small matter, and some might consider it nitpicking. However, at this point, it must be remembered that every writer who writes in professional contexts hopes that such grammatical errors/stylistic flaws are corrected, so that the writer can continue to write according to the norm.

This error is common enough that it certainly has general significance, and therefore, this is not in any way a remark directed at one person, even though the example was found in one thread and from only one exceptionally fluent writer.

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Myytäisi vs myytäisiin is, in my opinion, an understandable written form that comes from spoken language, but that “vaihdettaisi” doesn’t make sense to me; why would anyone even write like that, it doesn’t even inflect that way in my own spoken language. Could it be a dialect thing?

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A few times I’ve seen people on the forum using the word “möin”, which sounds quite amusing - at least to this islander’s ears.

I assume that the practice is more common a bit further east?

Hmm, ‘idemmässä’…

Is that even Finnish? Ah, hyla.

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Möi is a dying spoken language of a decaying people, similar to what you find on a discussion forum. Having listened to earnings season interviews in recent days, at least influences have been taken from the West, because such strong Finglish is not heard even in the lunch restaurants of Punavuori. :smiley: Hopefully, the forum’s discourse won’t be quite on the same levels content-wise next. Although it could liven up this thread to the next level or BMB just for every Kevin. Ngl

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Juurikki went to school so long ago that grammar has had time to change many times. Yet, it feels like something is wrong with this Inderes online guide:

Screenshot_20250910_193649_Samsung Internet
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Before, the correct forms would have been: “one must wait for an hour” or

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Well, it’s obvious that the forum’s taunt is not Finnish.

Funny that no one has noticed it before.

I myself have also sometimes looked for a long time for glasses that were on my forehead.

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There have been many things to note, for example this

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But according to what I’ve read, the moderators don’t know how to/do anything, let alone the other coders :wink: .

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Ah. My apologies. It was an unfounded assumption on my part that when there’s a clear error that the admin has been informed about, something would be done about it.

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Yeah, it can’t be fixed with moderator rights. :slight_smile: And not even with super-moderator rights (staff with slightly better rights). :slight_smile: Although I probably wouldn’t know how, even if I had the rights. :smiley:

I asked about this from a coder almost two years ago, but back then it wasn’t possible, or so I understood from the answer. But let’s tag these gentlemen just in case: @Yu_Gong or @Miikka_Laitila :slight_smile:

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I’ve dug into this before, but now I found it! That “hour” format comes directly from the code as a translation, so I can’t modify it. However, I changed it now to “You have to wait an hour between messages in this thread.” Let me know if there’s a better suggestion where the time format isn’t in the form of ‘hour’ :smiley:

Edit. How about “you have to wait an hour before sending the next message”?

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Isn’t the rule in a thread that you have to wait an hour before you can post your next message yourself? The current wording can be interpreted to mean that the next

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@Miikka_Laitila

My mother tongue teacher always said why do you write that, and that, and that with n number of characters when 7 fewer letters are enough.

An hour, not “for an hour”.

But many thanks!! That is at least proper Finnish now. Inde moves when poked in the backside with a stick.

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I wonder if there’s some kind of inside joke on this forum to write sentences in an extremely difficult-to-understand way. But maybe I’m not the only one, since I found a thread like this on the topic :smiley:

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