# Income Tax / Earned Income Taxation
**URL:** https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497
**Category:** Raha & säästäminen
**Tags:** verotus
**Created:** [February 28, 2023, 10:29am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497 "2023-02-28T10:29:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Kapylan\_Munger1](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Kapylan_Munger1)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 11:13am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/27 "2023-03-01T11:13:27Z")
Which of the options do you bet will happen if, according to the MTV News poll I linked earlier, 2/3 of the wise and stable nation is very or fairly satisfied with the current government? 😂
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### Author:  [@Torniojaws](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Torniojaws)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 11:16am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/28 "2023-03-01T11:16:43Z")
> [@Tryffelisika](#):
>
> I personally have never understood why the hell we even talk about gross salaries?
It’s probably in the Parliament’s “interest” to talk about gross figures, as that’s where the state “income”—meaning taxes—is paid from. What’s left after taxes doesn’t interest them much 😉
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### Author:  [@Torniojaws](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Torniojaws)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 11:20am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/29 "2023-03-01T11:20:08Z")
> [@viljami1](#):
>
> Those of you with high incomes (50,000 and up). Have you ever considered setting up your own limited company and invoicing your current salary?
That is quite common in my field (software development). There have been freelancers in pretty much every team I’ve been in during my career. Apparently, they earn decent money, but for many, their “job” (i.e., current project) has suddenly disappeared from under them because freelancers don’t have the same protection as permanent employees. So if you don’t mind uncertain income, it can be quite profitable.
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### Author:  [@gearloose1](https://forum.inderes.com/u/gearloose1)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 11:20am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/30 "2023-03-01T11:20:12Z")
> [@Kapylan\_Munger1](#):
>
> Which of the two options do you bet will happen if, according to the MTV News poll I linked earlier, 2/3 of the wise and stable nation are very or fairly satisfied with the current government 😂
An economic program spanning two parliamentary terms to fix the sustainability gap… 😂
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### Author:  [@Tunturisusi](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Tunturisusi)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 11:44am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/31 "2023-03-01T11:44:14Z")
A few charts showing the wealth of Finns vs. other Nordic countries:
This leads to the question: what has Finland done wrong, or what have the other Nordic countries done right over the last 20 years?
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### Author:  [@gearloose1](https://forum.inderes.com/u/gearloose1)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 12:09pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/32 "2023-03-01T12:09:11Z")
> [@Tunturisusi](#):
>
> This brings us to the thought of what has been done wrong in Finland or right in the other Nordic countries over the last 20 years?
This leads to the question of whether anything at all has been done right in Finland—if not in the last 20 years, then at least in the last 15?
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### Author:  [@Kapylan\_Munger1](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Kapylan_Munger1)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/33 "2023-03-01T12:54:45Z")
It’s a bit of a vicious cycle… No economic growth, no growth in earnings, no growth in wealth… government spending has increased both in absolute and relative terms, and the deficit has accumulated more every single year…
That cycle needs to be broken at some point to get out of it.
Finland (and Finns) just have a bad habit of lounging in self-deception and only making changes when it’s absolutely necessary.
Some might remember, for example, a self-invented straw man like the “NATO option,” which was used to avoid making a decision for quite a long time.
A similar straw man is the claim that “we are at the EU average or just slightly below it.” This is used to justify that we’re actually doing quite well and that nothing really needs to be done. But put another way, that same statement would sound like: “the only ones worse than us are the former Eastern Bloc countries, who are weighed down by the legacy of 70 years of communism.”
When you move the goalposts just right, you don’t have to do anything but wave your hands and lounge around. 🤦🏼♂️
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### Author:  [@RuhrJ](https://forum.inderes.com/u/RuhrJ)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 1:13pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/34 "2023-03-01T13:13:08Z")
Task: identify the country in the graph below that does not use the euro as its currency?
[ ](https://files.uploads-eu3.communiteq-cloud.com/uploads/db2934/original/3X/e/e/ee4bfdffbd859ec853cd8e1ce3bb05252a38fa8c.jpeg)
But all joking aside. In reality, comparing us to other Nordic countries is honestly unfair if we consider more than just geographical location, i.e., the starting points & backgrounds.
In the other Nordic countries, things would have had to be screwed up really badly for Finland to be anywhere near them in terms of wealth.
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### Author:  [@Boiler-room](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Boiler-room)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/35 "2023-03-01T13:27:18Z")
> [@viljami1](#):
>
> Those of you with high incomes (50,000 and up). Have you ever considered setting up your own limited company and invoicing your current salary?
Even better when you set up that limited company in, for example, Estonia, and move away yourself.
After 3 years, you’ll be free from the Finnish tax net and can trade stocks without capital gains tax.
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### Author:  [@Notorious](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Notorious)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/36 "2023-03-01T13:43:47Z")
I probably shouldn’t poke the hornet’s nest, but I can’t resist typing this out. Complaining is always in fashion. Complaining about taxes… well 😃
I’m not trying to claim that the Finnish model is perfect. Far from it, I’m sure, but I also recognize my own lack of expertise to comment on it.
What I can say, however, is that Finland is in the top 10 in almost every global ranking that measures well-being. Along with the other Nordic countries. And they all have a high tax rate.
I’ve spent quite a bit of time in many European countries besides Finland, as well as across the big ponds to both the west and east. Mostly as a tourist, of course. The longer you spend elsewhere, the nicer it is to return to Finland. And I’m not talking about the weather, but the society. If someone could just fix the climate for us, then voilà.
Where do you think the vibe is good? In the desert states where income tax is 0%? In the States? In Sweden?
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### Author:  [@Kapylan\_Munger1](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Kapylan_Munger1)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 1:48pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/37 "2023-03-01T13:48:12Z")
> [@Notorious](#):
>
> Complaining is always in style. Complaining about taxes… well 😃
There are just so many indicators heading in a bad direction. And that direction has been the same for a long time. And in my view, we aren’t even close to turning things around – Sipilä tried, but just ask the “village parliaments” at the local gas station bars what they think of the man 😂
There is a big risk here of ending up like that famous boiling frog.
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### Author:  [@Tryffelisika](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Tryffelisika)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/38 "2023-03-01T14:09:46Z")
> [@Emma\_Kuusinen](#):
>
> Gross salaries do not include employee-specific factors. However, net salary is affected by, for example, wage garnishment, union membership fees, and other possible items deducted from pay (for some, for example, rent, phone, work clothes, almost anything). And of course, there are so many personal factors in taxation, from capital income deductions to home renovations and travel expenses.
>
> Gross salary is indeed the only thing that is sensible to compare.
You listed quite accurate items regarding the things that sit between gross and net salary. However, I’m calling for a sense of proportion at this point.
So, if a person pays tens (some even hundreds) of thousands of euros a year in taxes and tax-like contributions from their salary, how much does it honestly matter that on top of that net salary, they get a phone benefit, work clothes, or “almost anything” from their employer?
My point is that I find it extremely depressing that in Finland, in any of the higher income brackets, the difference between an employee’s gross salary and the sum that ends up in their bank account is at least tens of thousands of euros per year, precisely because of those taxes and tax-like contributions. And now, if I understood the point of your reply correctly, you’re trying to say that one shouldn’t bother worrying or losing motivation over those lost tens (or hundreds) of thousands (gross salary vs. money entering the bank account) because of a phone benefit, work clothes, etc.
In my opinion, the things you listed don’t come anywhere near refuting or changing my point that in Finland, there is a dramatic difference between gross and net salary, especially when looking at higher income brackets. Because of this, I consider it unnecessarily misleading when, for example, the media discusses people’s incomes in gross rather than net terms.
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### Author:  [@Tunturisusi](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Tunturisusi)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 2:42pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/39 "2023-03-01T14:42:55Z")
I would say the Nordic countries are the most relevant point of comparison. At the beginning of the 2000s, we were all on the same starting line in terms of wealth. The only one not developing is Finland.
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### Author:  [@Addick](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Addick)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/40 "2023-03-01T14:59:46Z")
I completely agree with Notorious\_Small.
Finland is a very good country to live in and also to pay taxes.
One factor for happiness may be that you create good around you through your own actions, and in Finland, this is possible simply by paying taxes.
Reflecting on how to pay as little tax as possible and accumulate a massive fortune for oneself can actually be a factor that reduces happiness.
And the posts above wondered why more polluting cars or larger homes usually have higher taxes. A quick glance towards climate change might provide a clue. Taxes can be used to steer people’s behavior, and apparently, we have to act this way because we wouldn’t otherwise realize we need to stop this trend.
A small five-figure sum of my own income goes to taxes. I could certainly earn more and pay more taxes, but I’ve decided to do part of my work without drawing a salary.
The employer in question then uses the money saved from the salary expenses to, for example, support hobby activities for underprivileged children and other socially significant activities.
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### Author:  [@Ziibra](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Ziibra)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/41 "2023-03-01T15:05:19Z")
Alright, do we want a FLAT TAX or a PROGRESSIVE TAX in Finland? Provide your reasoning in text form, along with suggestions for easing or steepening the tax progression, as well as proposals for the flat tax rate!
_Poll ([view on site](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/41))_
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### Author:  [@HarhaanJohtaja](https://forum.inderes.com/u/HarhaanJohtaja)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/42 "2023-03-01T15:06:35Z")
The same tax in euros for everyone. No, not really.
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### Author:  [@Jape16](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Jape16)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/43 "2023-03-01T15:19:06Z")
Having worked with a marginal tax rate of approximately 60% for a long time, the effect on me has been that I haven’t been particularly motivated by salary increases for years. I’ve even turned them down a couple of times.
Of course, if you happened to get extra pay in a way that didn’t affect responsibilities, working hours, stress, travel, or meeting company targets, then the marginal tax wouldn’t matter so much, and extra money is always a plus. Unfortunately, to get significantly more pay, you often have to be prepared to take on more responsibility, stress, subordinates, travel days, etc.
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### Author:  [@Tunturisusi](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Tunturisusi)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/44 "2023-03-01T15:34:50Z")
The only positive development has mainly been among young people who have become interested in investing at a very early age and how wealth and well-being can be built through it.
I have long seen that Finland’s path as a welfare state is coming to an end, leading to belt-tightening and the downsizing of an oversized public sector. We are inevitably moving toward a situation where well-being is not created through tightening income taxes, but by motivating people to work more productively and diligently and rewarding them for it.
The alternative is to live in those 30-square-meter one-bedroom apartments, tighten our belts, and carry on as before. People were happy even back in the 40s, living in a 40-square-meter apartment with 10 kids, despite having only a wood stove and coal heating.
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### Author:  [@Kapylan\_Munger1](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Kapylan_Munger1)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/45 "2023-03-01T15:44:08Z")
> [@Tunturisusi](#):
>
> I have long seen that Finland’s path as a welfare state will come to an end, and belt-tightening and the downsizing of the oversized public sector will begin.
Why does this question divide people so much? I personally agree with you completely, but at the same time, I know there are many people who refuse to see it this way. Why is that? Many want to believe that since Finland has always been a great country, it will remain so in the future. And people seem to want to turn a blind eye so they don’t have to face the facts.
I have compared this to an investment decision. You see that the company’s revenue is not growing, you see that it is chronically loss-making, you see the company is heavily over-indebted and the debt is increasing, and you see that the company’s management refuses to make even a single structural reform. This has been going on for 15 years. But you like the company’s products, so you decide to invest half of your assets in it. Who would do that?
In Finland’s case, according to an MTV poll, 2/3 considered the actions of the government—i.e., the company’s management—to be in the right direction.
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### Author:  [@Tunturisusi](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Tunturisusi)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/tulovero-ansioverotus/38497/46 "2023-03-01T15:47:17Z")
I’m just saying that there are a lot of people here who haven’t traveled much outside of Finland’s borders or lived elsewhere. They have a very narrow perspective or aren’t willing to look into or compare things. Everything is viewed through blue-and-white tinted glasses.
Perhaps the younger generation is more open-minded in this regard as well. With the help of language skills, education, and courage, they are willing to see what the rest of Europe has to offer for skilled professionals.
This hasn’t exactly gone in a better direction either. When you look at the apartments being put up along the railway lines, they seem to be getting smaller and smaller.
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