# Full-time investing
**URL:** https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913
**Category:** Raha & säästäminen
**Created:** [April 12, 2021, 10:47am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913 "2021-04-12T10:47:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@lazyway](https://forum.inderes.com/u/lazyway)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 10:47am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/1 "2021-04-12T10:47:19Z")
In the _Your Goal with Investing_ thread, it was discussed that it would be nice to talk in its own thread about topics related to living off investments. Some are already in that life situation, others see it as a possibility or a goal in the future.
I’ve also been pondering this. I’ve already reduced my day job hours. At some point, I’ll probably completely detach myself from my current job, which is quite hectic. Financially, it’s gradually becoming possible. Alongside investing, it’s also possible to develop some small projects that could bring in additional income, if there’s interest.
Leaving a day job has its own challenges. I’ve been thinking that it’s worth investing in hobbies and developing other regular routines for daily life. It’s also important to invest in social networks if you don’t have the work community provided by a day job.
There’s a lot to this topic. “Peer support” and others’ experiences can be really useful if you’re aiming for such a life change. It’s not necessarily easy to “cut the umbilical cord” and strike out on your own. **It would be great if this thread could gather the experiences and insights of people who are already living off investments.**
**The thread’s name is ‘Investing as Main Livelihood,’ and it means that a person can have other jobs or income sources alongside, even if investing forms the financial foundation.** _Therefore, the thread is not intended to solely discuss a lifestyle where all work has been completely ceased._
What are your thoughts on this? 🙂
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### Author:  [@Tume1](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Tume1)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 10:53am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/2 "2021-04-12T10:53:06Z")
I would like to hear thoughts from those who have already retired and those who are possibly planning to live off their investments.
At what age did you retire or do you plan to retire from working life?
How much money have you set aside per year for living expenses or as total assets?
How quickly did you reach your goal? (investment period)
Are you completely debt-free?
What do you plan to do with all your time?
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### Author:  [@Umpimahka](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Umpimahka)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 11:29am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/4 "2021-04-12T11:29:12Z")
My thoughts, at least at the moment, are somewhat following @lazyway 's path. I’m hoping to switch to a 4-day week initially; I’m not particularly keen on stopping work completely, as it’s quite meaningful. In my current life situation, additional savings to the portfolio versus the portfolio’s expected return are very small, so I’m not counting on additional savings. In principle, a 4-day work week would probably be enough for daily expenses.
- The portfolio is now a solid 220k, so at the moment, a complete withdrawal is not realistic. But with good success, it could be a reasonably sized portfolio in about 10 years, even without additional savings. I rarely draw from the principal these days.
- I’m 34 and my children are young. At work, it would probably be good to justify a 4-day work week by needing time at home; I probably won’t bring up the portfolio size as a motivator.
- The portfolio is nowhere near enough to cover expenses, but I have been considering the 4-day week in the near future with the idea that I wouldn’t need to save any more from my salary.
- I have about 100k€ in debt (mortgage).
- I don’t believe increased wasted time will be a problem.
- My circle of friends is such that I’m unlikely to get anything but positive comments after a potential reduction in work.
- I’d also add that I don’t intend to reduce the time I spend on investing, as this is an important hobby. I consider investing an “endless game” and I hate the saying that profit/loss isn’t realized until a sale. In my opinion, an investor makes a daily decision to hold/sell/buy each stock in their portfolio.
At what point do I stop working completely? Only time will tell, of course, but will working slightly above average wages still motivate me if the portfolio, for example, goes over a million? I’ve thought about that a bit, because I believe it will be an inevitable outcome at some point. I haven’t thought about it this far ahead, because I’ve noticed that all sorts of things tend to happen in life. Let’s try to let go of the 5th workday first.
Edit: And a warning to readers, when I start thinking about things like this, we’re probably at pretty high valuation levels.
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### Author:  [@Kulkuri](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Kulkuri)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 11:54am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/5 "2021-04-12T11:54:17Z")
At what age did you retire or do you plan to retire?
I freelanced (and lived abroad) from age 50 to 71.
How much money have you set aside per year for living expenses or as total assets?
I’m trying to live off my investments as much as possible, but this pandemic has put a damper on at least the travel part. Other expenses are quite low because I’ve gotten enthusiastic about cooking myself. About a million.
How quickly did you reach your goal? (investment period)
The last 3 years have gone really fast (meaning I’ve had time to delve deeper). Tax exemption certainly helps.
Are you completely debt-free? Completely.
What do you plan to do with all your time?
Now I cook, and once the world opens up, I’ll start traveling again (I don’t hitchhike with a backpack).
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### Author:  [@Ade](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Ade)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/6 "2021-04-12T16:54:20Z")
Did you start investing “from scratch,” meaning you built your portfolio solely with funds left over from your salary that were sufficient for investing? 😀
And if so, what was your average monthly investment amount to reach your goal, and in what timeframe?
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### Author:  [@Ade](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Ade)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/8 "2021-04-12T18:08:31Z")
Well done, excellent😀👍
I myself could perhaps, by really squeezing and being VERY frugal after providing for my family, manage to save 200-300 euros per month right now (I do have to make some compromises at the family’s expense already). And from that sum, I’d naturally have to set aside a little for a rainy day, at least 50€/month.
Damn, I wish I could just have a little more left in my account after living costs😬. But it feels like all extra bits and pieces just go towards living expenses.
Oh darn🤨
(The income I receive from the factory is quite modest)
My education includes a matriculation examination (Finnish equivalent of high school diploma) and a vocational qualification as a laboratory technician. I have about 16 years of work experience, with the same company, and my salary is now apparently at its maximum.
My basic monthly net salary is about 1600-1700€/month. From that, all a family man’s living expenses are deducted.
However, I’m now trying to invest everything that I can even slightly manage to save after mandatory expenses. My motivation is high👍
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### Author:  [@Artisti](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Artisti)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/9 "2021-04-12T18:09:28Z")
I’m interested in hearing from those who have been living primarily off investment income for a while now: how do you practically generate cash flow for weekly/monthly expenses?
Have you built a dividend portfolio, and if so, are the dividend stocks designed so that dividends are paid out more evenly throughout the year?
If you sell units for consumption, according to what kind of logic do you do it?
Are debt-free investment apartments or commercial spaces bringing in monthly cash flow?
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### Author:  [@saku](https://forum.inderes.com/u/saku)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/10 "2021-04-12T19:12:39Z")
Could @VPKe share a few words here? Even though we just got to listen to him at the stock market event. ☺
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### Author:  [@Hapakka](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Hapakka)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/11 "2021-04-12T19:40:11Z")
> [@Artisti](#):
>
> How do you practically generate cash flow for weekly/monthly expenses?
I don’t belong to that group myself. But I would imagine that if the financial planning is sufficient to build such a portfolio, then it is also sufficient to know how to distribute the cash flow received once a year throughout the entire year, or to strategically withdraw capital from a growth portfolio as needed.
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### Author:  [@Artisti](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Artisti)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/12 "2021-04-12T20:40:08Z")
Surely, yes, but I am still in the capital accumulation phase, so there might be good practical tips that are useful to know in advance. For example, how to optimize FIFO (First-In, First-Out) and insane capital gains taxes… It makes me wonder if it would be wise to split purchases into two portfolios over time, and then sell the less appreciated assets from one portfolio first if necessary, or something similar.
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### Author:  [@VPKe](https://forum.inderes.com/u/VPKe)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 3:56am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/13 "2021-04-13T03:56:48Z")
The initial capital was 20,000 Finnish marks (approx. 3,500€). The year was 1997.
I put everything into one Merita fund (International Equity Fund), which had a high equity weighting and China as one of its regions. The fund generated some returns, but I was a little too early regarding China’s rise.
My studies (Bachelor of Business Administration in Financial Management, i.e., an accountant) ended in 2000. At that time, the portfolio had grown to 100,000 Finnish marks (16,800€). That amount wasn’t enough to go to the moon, but it was something for a student.
At that point, the momentum was already so strong, and the portfolio was growing at such a pace that it would have been possible to escape the rat race even before the age of 30, just by doing odd jobs and pursuing my investing hobby. However, life decided to hit the emergency brake.
In the summer of 2000, I decided to leave my job and take care of my one-year-old daughter at the time. Three years passed with her and her younger sister, born a year later, without financial worries, i.e., I had no money. From my meager pennies, I put 50€ into a fund monthly. The amount was symbolic and kept the flame alive. However, I had gained enough confidence in my abilities to know what was possible if I only had enough time.
Back to work in 2003. Job hunting was a bit slow due to the three-year sabbatical. But I found something, and I just started grinding.
At this point, the original portfolio had transformed into a summer cottage, and there were no stocks or any other capital beyond a small fund share.
From 2003-2011, I worked as much as I could, with a gross salary of 1100-3000€/month.
From those earnings, I eventually managed to build a 50,000€ portfolio (half in an LLC, half personally). The LLC was not originally an investment company; it was something else entirely. Eventually, human factors led the company to operate in anonymous markets.
The size of the portfolio includes some appreciation, so estimating the initial capital is difficult.
From 2011-2015, we lived entirely on salary income, about 3000€/month net. It varied slightly from month to month. The portfolio started to live a life of its own, but no capital was withdrawn. The small dividends from my personal portfolio went towards living expenses, and from the company’s portfolio towards expenses. So, dividends were not reinvested; although in the LLC, they ensured that nothing had to be sold due to expenses, so in a way, they were reinvested, but not into stocks.
The goal was to build a 500,000€ portfolio that could generate at least a 10% return in all circumstances. Not just as dividends, but as a combination (dividend/appreciation). However, my civilian work showed signs of slowing down already at 300,000€, and I decided to rely on the portfolio. All’s well that ends well, but I don’t recommend it to anyone.
The investment strategy from the start was to heavily invest in fast-growing and profitable companies. Dividends were a bonus if they came. The goal was to eventually shift the portfolio more towards dividend companies, but keeping overall growth in mind. If one focuses too much on optimizing cash flow, one has to make compromises on growth, and that eats into overall returns.
Even now, dividends are not enough for cash flow. They make up about half of the annual need, and the rest comes from selling something.
I usually make my budget on an annual basis and outline the amount of cash needed. The budget year begins in the spring with dividends, when I know what level the dividends are at and how much I’ll need to cover by selling.
There’s always something to sell in a portfolio of over a million. The general advice is to sell the weak and keep the strong. For me, this is a bit difficult because there are no bad ones left. When making a selling decision, I try to look at where the company is headed, whether growth is slowing down, and if better returns could be obtained from other assets. So I might sell a company that has performed well historically and instead keep what I believe to be a promising growth candidate. The intention is not to completely and quickly divest from any company, but to gradually reduce the holding. However, the annual need for selling is quite small (\<5% of the portfolio).
Although the outcome looks successful in retrospect and the journey worthwhile, I don’t recommend the exact same approach to everyone.
I would have gladly continued my civilian job longer, but eventually, I just didn’t have the energy for more. It’s not too late to return to working life to some extent, but my nature has some limiting factors that make large-scale cooperation in salaried work only possible to a limited degree.
The current situation is optimal in that I find things to do daily without a day job. I actually don’t have time to do everything I want, but maybe in retirement.
Monitoring finances and investing has become such a strong routine over the years that the actual investment work doesn’t take more than a couple of hours a day, sometimes even less. I try to stay constantly alert to the markets, but still look from a sufficient distance so that I don’t get blinded by short-term movements.
Retirement and Death
I realized quite early on that the pension accumulated during my career would not be what I would rely on for the latter half of my life. I decided to build my own pension well before retirement age, which seemed to be moving further and further away anyway.
There was no specific time target, but 30-35 seemed realistic to achieve even at the beginning. After a few twists and turns, the final retirement happened at 40.
Ending work was not an obsession in itself, but I got so tired of my then-job that it ended naturally.
Should the money be used up when the coffin lid is closed?
In my case, the goal is absolutely not to spend everything. A sufficiently high quality of life without unnecessary frugality. I am gradually transferring capital to my children, and they will eventually have a much better financial backing than I did. Hopefully, they will also get as good a start in life as I did.
If someone’s nature drives them to waste money, I can’t do anything about it then.
I would hope that with the help of the initial capital, children would at least be able to make their study decisions without financial pressure. If they feel like studying pseudo-sciences, then go for it.
If it happens that there is a bit more to distribute in the years to come, we could establish a foundation, for example, that distributes a thousand per person per month.
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### Author:  [@Dachs\_Hund](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Dachs_Hund)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 7:47am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/14 "2021-04-13T07:47:09Z")
What has been the average annual return on investments? Based on the amounts, it seems quite good if you’ve reached a million? Great job!
I invested the same amount in Merita’s (Merita) mixed fund around the same time, and the outcome has been clearly worse. 🕶
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### Author:  [@VPKe](https://forum.inderes.com/u/VPKe)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 7:57am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/15 "2021-04-13T07:57:39Z")
There have been some lean years when I haven’t had a portfolio at all, so it’s a bit difficult to calculate.
Some engineer once calculated that the annual return would have been 35%, but I don’t know if he took into account the empty years.
I don’t follow the overall development of the portfolio. I focus solely on the development of individual companies’ operations and somewhat on the behavior of the stock price. The total return comes as a byproduct.
When you don’t follow big numbers, it doesn’t make your head spin. Even now, I know the size of the portfolio with an accuracy of about a hundred thousand.
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### Author:  [@Dachs\_Hund](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Dachs_Hund)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 8:14am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/16 "2021-04-13T08:14:26Z")
Surely a good strategy. A suitable combination of company-level monitoring and a helicopter view.
35% is a tremendous annual return in the long run, and very few can achieve that. What are the best successes in your portfolio?
Helicopter monitoring helps, for example, in situations like last spring, when you can avoid looking at daily losses, etc.
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### Author:  [@VPKe](https://forum.inderes.com/u/VPKe)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 8:23am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/17 "2021-04-13T08:23:42Z")
The best one is not hard to guess, namely Done Solutions.
The following also include tenbaggers and at least multibaggers: Balansor/ACF/Ruukki Group, Instrumentarium, Amer, Incap, QT.
Among current holdings, Trainers House is already known, so it can be named.
Additionally, I believe at least two of my holdings are potential multibaggers within a few years’ perspective.
Now we’re starting to stray from the topic of the thread into philosophy, so a flag will be waving soon.
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### Author:  [@Wompatti](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Wompatti)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 8:44am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/18 "2021-04-13T08:44:30Z")
I had a 31-year career in IT, from coder to manager, and a year ago I decided that the rat race was enough for this life. I don’t have a huge stock portfolio, and I couldn’t rely solely on it, so I approached the matter as follows (and I thought about these financial matters for quite some time before making that downshifting decision… I don’t think some of my points are really discussed in these “leaving work discussions”).
1. Is my pension accumulation sufficient for current expenses compared to my assumed spending level? For me, it is, very much so. Thus, I don’t need to stress too much about how cash flow/capital consumption will last for the rest of my life (~30 years or so), but it’s enough that it covers the time until retirement, i.e., about ten years. I haven’t often seen this point considered in comments on this topic.
2. Is there a reason to have a lot of assets at the time of death?
I don’t need to. I’ve already decided that the inheritance from my still-living parents should go directly to my child. Although I hope it will still be some time until that happens, it will still happen soon enough for it to be beneficial to my child as they build their own life. By the time I kick the bucket, the situation will presumably be different. Plus, it saves one set of inheritance taxes.
I’m sure something will be left to inherit from me in due course, but it’s not necessary to consider that in these calculations. Like point 1, the analysis of this is usually missing from these cases.
3. How small do so-called basic living expenses get?
When you have hardly any loans and cut back on some non-critical comfort items, they become quite small. One must be careful with estimates here, because I don’t think life is meant to be suffering, and on the other hand, especially in these times, one must consider that when all the fun things are closed, less money is spent than perhaps would be in normal times.
4. What do you want to spend money and time on??
This is why downshifting is done. If you can’t find a meaningful alternative for your time, it’s better to stay in working life. For me, that’s easy… I want to see as much of the world as possible. And when you’re used to traveling on a very small budget, you can do even more of it in the future.
5. What is the value of other major assets and is the money tied up in them wisely?
I don’t have a car (I live in the Helsinki metropolitan area with good connections), no summer cottage, and no sailboat (because longer holidays are spent traveling the world anyway).
Living in Helsinki is nice, but not so nice that I couldn’t move to a small town in Southern Finland if needed. This way, I could easily free up new capital almost equal to my current portfolio if I wanted.
So, the plan for the rest of my life (once I get over this super cold) is something like this: I’ll travel the world for about 4-5 months a year, and for the rest of the time, I’ll do part-time jobs whose flexibility allows for that absence.
Those odd jobs will cover the basic expenses from point 3, and investment income & capital consumption will cover that hobby. With these provisions, I should easily make it to retirement age. At that point, I can then evaluate whether to change my place of residence from Helsinki to some province in pursuit of a more abundant life (or a larger investment portfolio).
If traveling the world starts to get boring at some point, I can always return to a more normal working life. There’s certainly plenty of work for those who want it, at least here in the metropolitan area.
So, there are my somewhat informal thoughts on the topic through my own plans. I hope this generates some ideas for readers considering similar arrangements 😃
…and if anyone notices a flaw in my logic, please let me know. I’ll offer a virtual 🍺.
-W
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### Author:  [@Artisti](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Artisti)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/19 "2021-04-13T09:51:02Z")
> [@VPKe](#):
>
> The initial capital was 20,000 Finnish Marks (approx. 3500€). The year was 1997.
Your story has so many similarities to my own investing journey! I also started around '97 with the Merita Optima hybrid fund, with 16k Finnish Marks, and reached 100k Finnish Marks in a couple of years, if I recall correctly. Everything went in the tech bubble and student life; I started building my portfolio again around 2004, but more seriously only in 2008 when my salary level rose. Here’s a slightly more detailed description: [Tavoitteesi sijoittamisella? - #32 käyttäjältä Artisti - Raha & säästäminen - Inderes forum](https://keskustelut.inderes.fi/t/tavoitteesi-sijoittamisella/7149/32?u=artisti)
The biggest difference between us is that I invested in real estate around 2010, and now I have 2 investment properties. However, we have roughly the same amount of equity overall 🙂
Great story, and you have certainly succeeded better in terms of returns than I have. I’ve messed up by buying an expensive car and spending, and my stock returns are also far from yours. But that debt leverage is a big help, which is possible in real estate investing.
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### Author:  [@Artisti](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Artisti)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 10:05am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/21 "2021-04-13T10:05:33Z")
I think many are willing to spar and share their thoughts, so just message those whose opinions you’re interested in!
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### Author:  [@lokomotiivi](https://forum.inderes.com/u/lokomotiivi)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 10:24am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/22 "2021-04-13T10:24:22Z")
My plan: I will retire or move to significantly lighter work in 2025.
- Apartment paid off or loan remaining max 50k
- Portfolio of 800k-1000k accumulated by then, with gross dividend income of 40k, which will sustain me until official retirement without additional income
- Official pension earned by 2025 around 4k/month gross, so no further accumulation is needed. I can start drawing that pension apparently around age 65 in 2040, meaning my standard of living will significantly increase then
- As an added bonus: I will try to get a severance package in 2025, in the order of 100k+ gross and 20 months of earnings-related allowance of 4500€/month gross if nothing else meaningful is found
In my “retirement” starting in 2025, I will dabble in portfolio management, some other personal businesses, or light consulting or hobbies. For example, 2k/month gross earned income is perfectly sufficient. In fact, even less is enough.
In addition to this, I intend to study and pursue hobbies.
So now I need to stick strictly to the plan for the years 2021-2025, and then the path is clear.
Once this Corona plague eases, I would be interested in joining an in-real-life meeting group with roughly the same goal and timeline.
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### Author:  [@Artisti](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Artisti)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/paaelantona-sijoittaminen/16913/23 "2021-04-13T17:00:07Z")
> [@lokomotiivi](#):
>
> When this Corona scourge eases, I would be interested in joining an in-real-life meeting group that has roughly the same goal and timeline.
Yeah, to Inderes’ office to drink Sandels! 😃
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