# How to talk about stock investing to skeptics?
**URL:** https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335
**Category:** Sijoittaminen
**Created:** [October 25, 2020, 11:04am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335 "2020-10-25T11:04:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Anacott\_Steel](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Anacott_Steel)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 11:04am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/1 "2020-10-25T11:04:25Z")
I have people in my close circle who are very negative about my investing hobby. Most of them lean heavily to the left politically (less surprising). Clearly, they consider investing, especially stock investing, an immoral activity where the rich get richer at the expense of the poor. I have tried to have a sensible and dispassionate discussion with them, but everyone remains firmly entrenched in their positions. Below are some of the arguments I’ve heard against investing. The wording is my own, as I don’t remember the originals verbatim.
1. Investing increases income inequality.
2. Investors only think about money and are therefore superficial materialists.
3. Investor returns come at the expense of other people.
4. One should live by their work (or pension) and not by capital gains.
5. Capitalism is the root of all evil. Investing is a capitalist activity and therefore condemnable.
6. Stock investing is morally questionable, if not outright criminal activity, involving manipulation of prices and exploitation of insider information.
7. A public company’s sole purpose is profit maximization. Profit is pursued by any means necessary.
8. A real estate investor brazenly exploits the housing allowance system and tax deduction opportunities related to real estate investing, as well as, of course, the housing shortage, e.g., in the Helsinki metropolitan area.
It is noteworthy that the criticism never focuses on company choices - in fact, no one who condemns investing ever even asks what companies are in my portfolio. The disapproval is thus directed at investing in general. As a special added spice, I remember reading a study according to which Finns would prefer others to become wealthy through a lottery win rather than through investing. Overall, the attitude of unfortunately many Finns towards investing seems to be quite negative, and in my opinion, this is based on incomplete information and misunderstandings. Below are some arguments I have used to defend investing.
a) Investing is not a zero-sum game; one person’s gain is not automatically another’s loss (especially not for someone who doesn’t invest themselves).
b) In fact, investing is a positive-sum game, where in addition to the investor, society as a whole benefits through capital taxes.
c) Investing is a responsible activity because an investor has a financial buffer for bad times and is less likely to have to rely on social welfare than a person who does not invest.
d) Long-term investing means that an investor has to commit a large amount of capital for a long time, and this capital cannot be used for consumption as long as it is invested. Thus, a long-term investor has to cut back on consumption until the goal is achieved, unlike a hand-to-mouth non-investor who blows their entire paycheck every month.
e) An ordinary person has no opportunity to exploit insider information or manipulate stock prices.
f) Investing always involves the risk of capital depreciation or even destruction. In addition, one has to wait a long time for the reward. Therefore, the reward at the end is not undeserved, but a reward for long-term and disciplined risk-taking.
g) A long-term investor treats the wealth they have accumulated differently from a lottery winner and certainly doesn’t blow the entire pot once their goal is achieved.
I know, of course, that there is no philosopher’s stone that can instantly change the minds of people who are negative about investing. Nevertheless, I would be interested to hear if other forum members have similar discussions and what kind of arguments you have found for investing. I consider myself a responsible investor and feel that my investing activities benefit not only myself but also society as a whole. I therefore find it extremely frustrating and even insulting that some people close to me disapprove of an activity that I consider responsible and constructive.
Does this spark any thoughts?
---
### Author:  [@tottoro](https://forum.inderes.com/u/tottoro)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 11:22am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/2 "2020-10-25T11:22:14Z")
I told someone about my investments, to which he retorted that he knew someone else who had also played the stock market. Some people have the perception that stocks are bought randomly like lottery tickets and you just hope for a profit, and that you win more often in the lottery.
---
### Author:  [@KalleH](https://forum.inderes.com/u/KalleH)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 11:23am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/3 "2020-10-25T11:23:43Z")
Try to speak their language and about things they value. For example, responsible investing (ESG), green investing, etc. Mention how the stock market actually works very morally and easily punishes wrongdoers or notorious industries (tobacco, prison business, and fossil fuels). If a stock’s valuation is low and banks are at the same time reluctant to lend to a disreputable industry, obtaining financing for them may become an insurmountable problem.
A practical example of this buffer could be Nordnet’s Super Loan. Even with a small share capital (10k), one could secure their back by always getting secured loans at a very affordable one percent interest rate, eliminating the need to resort to immoral payday loans. If they don’t understand with a reasonable explanation not to be reluctant, I recommend changing circles.
---
### Author:  [@viljo](https://forum.inderes.com/u/viljo)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/4 "2020-10-25T11:48:18Z")
Just tell your friends that by investing and participating in companies like Nel Asa, VOW, etc., in wind and solar power, you are financing the transition to clean energy and, in your opinion, saving the world from global warming. These options include certain funds and impact investing, for example, through Taaleri.
You can also tell them that when big businesses and, for example, energy (including oil) companies have warmed up to the idea, and with regulation and public opinion, big money can be persuaded to invest and make environmental friendliness commercially viable and even mandatory. This way, climate change can be fought more effectively than with politics alone.
Therefore, as an investor, I am financing the solution to climate change and saving the world. This is how even an ordinary worker can make a difference. The same applies to digitalization; done correctly, it reduces the environmental burden, and soon even cellulose can be used to make fabrics (replacing cotton) and substitutes for plastics.
It’s entirely up to you how you want to emphasize each point.
---
### Author:  [@Gadus](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Gadus)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/5 "2020-10-25T12:24:47Z")
I don’t know the age group, but I would forget about educating these younger generation (green) leftists. The content of the bubble is carefully considered and the content can no longer be modified. I am mainly generalizing based on my own experiences.
As a rule of thumb, one could say that it is not worth emphasizing. Sometimes you can mention it, and if the matter comes up later with the other party, then it is good to continue. Talking about money still seems to be very difficult, especially if you don’t handle it well yourself or if your livelihood is otherwise tight. After all, you can’t get rich here any other way than by playing the lottery.
---
### Author:  [@Artisti](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Artisti)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:30pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/6 "2020-10-25T12:30:14Z")
I justify this through the importance of domestic ownership;
- It’s not in Finland’s best interest for all our employer companies to be foreign-owned
- Domestic capital promotes well-being
If these arguments don’t resonate, we can change the topic 🙂
---
### Author:  [@KalleH](https://forum.inderes.com/u/KalleH)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/7 "2020-10-25T12:33:22Z")
> [@Gadus](#):
>
> I don’t know the age group, but I would forget about educating these younger generation (green)leftists.
On the other hand, young people are very aware of investing these days. FIRE is almost as popular as yoga. Even if you’re a green leftist, the concern about the pension system is strong among millennials.
---
### Author:  [@Anacott\_Steel](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Anacott_Steel)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/8 "2020-10-25T12:33:55Z")
I’m “over forty” in the Fingerpori sense, and my inner circle is mostly 35-50 years old. All are middle-income earners with permanent jobs, meaning a stable livelihood and professions requiring higher education. So, it’s not a lack of education or intelligence, but rather, I suppose, a categorical ideology.
The ESG perspective could indeed be raised, as someone suggested earlier in the thread, but the discussion almost never progresses to the company level; it’s clearly an ideological stance toward all investing. Maybe I’ve just chosen the wrong friends… 😂
---
### Author:  [@viljo](https://forum.inderes.com/u/viljo)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:41pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/9 "2020-10-25T12:41:46Z")
The stock market, at least, exists so that good ideas can seek funding from investors. For example, hydrogen companies are now building factories that produce electrolysis equipment with that money…
It’s also nice to get money (you get it from investing, if you invest smartly).
Maybe you need to select the right companies for the discussion.
---
### Author:  [@Puke](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Puke)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:41pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/10 "2020-10-25T12:41:56Z")
Explain ownership and investment based on a very small business, like a single-owner coffee shop. Few people perceive these as terrible exploiters. Scale from there.
---
### Author:  [@Johnnyboy](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Johnnyboy)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/11 "2020-10-25T12:43:43Z")
Perhaps it would be good to ask what kind of process they see investing as, and to correct misunderstandings and fill in gaps in their perception.
Maybe they know next to nothing about investing, and the whole process appears to them something like this: “In the morning, you buy shares of a company that has risen 30% (based on yesterday’s decision), then you use insider information, and 5 minutes later, when it’s still up 25% (meaning you’re about 5% down yourself), you sell the shares for a huge profit, and then on top of that, you supposedly get some tax deductions.”
P.S. If you then start talking about ESG in addition to this belief of theirs, they’ll think that with greenwashing, you’ll probably get double returns, which have been swindled from the earnings of those who support green values.
---
### Author:  [@Anacott\_Steel](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Anacott_Steel)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/12 "2020-10-25T12:46:03Z")
Yeah, I’ve sometimes thought about that starting point. So, most leftists probably accept private enterprise. And an entrepreneur has to invest their own (or borrowed) capital into the company. A stock investor just puts money into a company run by someone else. I’ll have to try it that way.
---
### Author:  [@xlat](https://forum.inderes.com/u/xlat)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 1:42pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/13 "2020-10-25T13:42:05Z")
Ideologies are tricky because they cloud independent and rational thinking. If the other party is heavily ideologically charged, they mostly just shut down and become resistant at the very beginning of the discussion, and after that, the discussion is pretty useless.
I myself have mainly opened discussions by neutraly telling about my own investments at an appropriate moment, without even trying to “teach” people. Then, if interest arises, one can leverage that curiosity and tell more. Sometimes more discussion has ensued, other times the conversation has quickly died down. I don’t start discussions with everyone at all; I will tell them if someone asks about it.
So I can’t really help much, I would mainly consider taking a pretty neutral approach and using my own investments as an example (or picking companies familiar to people as examples). And for some, domestic ownership can be a good argument.
---
### Author:  [@Raha-aasi](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Raha-aasi)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/14 "2020-10-25T13:44:49Z")
{“content”:“If someone is hesitant or has a negative attitude towards investing, I let it be. All flowers are allowed to bloom. No one is forced to get rich.\n\nFreedom is a great value.\n\nFor those whose political and/or moral subjective conscience says that getting rich through stocks is questionable. Or for those for whom getting rich has no questionable elements. Both are allowed to exist. There is no need or benefit to teach. Everyone makes their own choices. Few will reveal later, especially if they regret it.”}
---
### Author:  [@Jyvis](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Jyvis)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/15 "2020-10-25T14:00:22Z")
There are just some things in the world you shouldn’t argue about, especially within your family. Investing is great because you don’t have to tell anyone about it up to a certain point, at least outside of finance. Land deals, on the other hand, oh brother and their sisters, wow.. 😬
---
### Author:  [@Tenu](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Tenu)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/16 "2020-10-25T14:13:19Z")
My experience with investing and understanding it is strongly linked to my educational background and understanding of investing. By this, I mean that I educated myself as an adult, and it was really only during this time that I learned to research the basics of investing and how through it I could potentially influence things like climate change and human development. As was already mentioned here, I believe that small investors’ investments matter. Good things come from small streams. About ten years ago, I knew virtually nothing about investing because, due to my own laziness, I didn’t want to find out about it. Mostly, investing stories were just old tales from the Esso bar about a friend of a friend who had bought Nokia in the 90s and gotten rich. I have always had fairly well-paid jobs, and in principle, I could have saved money and invested it, but back then, I didn’t feel the need to. And that’s perfectly fine. I haven’t played the lottery in over ten years, and I don’t feel that current investing is about seeking to get rich, although of course, one doesn’t want to do it at a loss. For both of my children, I have been saving for years and have invested some of it with the idea that perhaps this could provide at least some kind of nest egg, for example, for their first home.
---
### Author:  [@KalleH](https://forum.inderes.com/u/KalleH)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/17 "2020-10-25T15:56:47Z")
I often bring up investing for children with friends and acquaintances. You’d think everyone would want the best for their children, at least. Everyone basically nods along, but when I bring it up again, very few have actually set up a portfolio. Luckily, there are a few exceptions in my inner circle. I just can’t think of a single argument why a family with two normal-income parents couldn’t save even 15 euros a month into a no-fee fund.
---
### Author:  [@Anacott\_Steel](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Anacott_Steel)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/18 "2020-10-25T17:53:32Z")
I definitely agree that you shouldn’t start teaching anyone how to manage their finances unless they ask for it. Generally speaking, preaching rarely produces the desired result. It would be perfectly sufficient for me if people close to me, whom I consider intelligent, wouldn’t disapprove of me just because I invest. Luckily, I do have other investors among my friends. Maybe I should just talk about investing with like-minded people and avoid discussing the topic with certain individuals.
However, I have already gained a few new perspectives from this thread, so if the topic comes up among the “challenging” crowd, I’ll have something more to back me up. Thanks at this point to everyone who has brought up ideas, and it’s nice that the topic sparks discussion.
---
### Author:  [@evolution](https://forum.inderes.com/u/evolution)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/19 "2020-10-25T18:02:59Z")
{“content”:“A couple of possible arguments:\n\n1: Investing is ownership. You can own something for a very long time, for example, decades.\n2: Investing by ordinary people means that large companies have many owners, and profits more often end up in the ordinary expenses of ordinary people.”}
---
### Author:  [@Mukava\_valkku](https://forum.inderes.com/u/Mukava_valkku)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2020, 7:12pm UTC](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335/20 "2020-10-25T19:12:48Z")
Funny topic, and good pondering in the opening post. From the title, my first thought was that maybe it’s not worth wasting time talking about investing if the other person is lukewarm about it. I don’t have the altruistic blood in me to try to change a reluctant person’s mind on this matter. If they don’t like it, then let them not invest. If, on the other hand, their view of investing and investors is so negative… then so be it. Shrug and move on, smiling all the way to the bank.
What bothers me more are those self-deprecating comments like “I’d be interested, but I don’t understand anything about it.” To such people, I often try to emphasize that it’s not rocket science, and a person with common sense can indeed make a return on their money over time.
Another phrase that often grates on my ears is “I’d like to start, but it’s not worth it with such small amounts of money.”
E: Heh, I just happened to visit Taaler’s website, and this blog post by Paula Vesala is closely related to this topic: [https://www.taalerivarainhoito.com/ajankohtaista/sijoitusblogit/raha-hyvisten-juttu](https://www.taalerivarainhoito.com/ajankohtaista/sijoitusblogit/raha-hyvisten-juttu)
[Next page](https://forum.inderes.com/t/kuinka-puhua-osakesijoittamisesta-siihen-penseasti-suhtautuville/8335.md?page=2)